2021 Formula One Saudi Arabian Grand Prix

Damage Inc · Dec 6, 2021

Mr. Malarkey said:
Both of them are being jerks and crybabies (and I'm saying that as someone who is rooting for one of those drivers). And the team principals are even worse. This should be the most exciting final race of any season in recent memory, but instead it's just turned into a bunch of whining and crying and name-calling and blaming and accusing. I'm not even looking forward to next weekend. It's going to be a ****-show, and both teams - drivers and principals - are going to be insufferable, no matter who wins or loses. What we've learned this season is that this is a sport filled with a bunch of spoiled man-babies who need to grow the f*ck up. I long for the days where real grown-ups like Fangio or Clark were respectful to their opponents and were respected in return. Win or lose, good sportsmanship matters. That's a lesson that both drivers, as well as Whiny Spice and Dorothy's Little Dog, need to learn.

Yup, main reason why NO driver from this era should be regarded as the GOAT.

Enagee · Dec 6, 2021

muzikant said:
no you are wrong as long as the FIA continues to give presents to Mercedes. Compare it to a football match that runs from hand. In other words, the arbitration is rubbish. If this doesn't change it will only get worse

Do you really think the FIA wants Mercedes to win? What's the benefit to the FIA?

I can tell you it will benefit the FIA more if Max wins........and that's just pure common sense, as Merc domination is not enjoyed by the fans or the people (FIA)who make money from it.

Why do you think Massi was bargaining with Redbull at the restart? why did Redbull accept the grid change? Going to the stewards would be a harsher penalty which would have put Max in a far worse position and Massi knows!

If Bottas was 10 secs behind Max, Max would not get a 10-sec penalty...it would be 5 sec.

This scenario is perfect for the FIA.

When the FIA see orange smoke in the crowd it means new fans and more $$$$££££€€€€

I'll be interested to hear your reasons why would the FIA would give "presents to Mercedes" and Lewis....

Mr. Malarkey · Dec 6, 2021

Damage Inc said:
Yup, main reason why NO driver from this era should be regarded as the GOAT.

No kidding. Calling anyone GOAT is silly. Racing today is nothing like racing even 20 years ago, let alone 70 years ago. It's comparing apples and oranges.

The desperate need to rank everyone and everything is foolish.

paracletus · Dec 6, 2021

Kind of enjoyable year of F1, but it was all a bit embarassing. Some of them need to improve their attitudes and realise that impressionable young will look up to their behaviour; that is why "flipping off" and all of these road-rage incidents have to stop. In football and other sports, you'll probably get sent off for doing that. Why is this ok in modern F1?
Try flipping-off or brake-checking motorists next time you're driving through downtown LA big man, and see what happens. People get shot for doing that, no joke.

blekenbleu · Dec 6, 2021

Mr. Malarkey said:
Fangio or Clark were respectful

.. because competitors could easily kill them.

Mr. Malarkey said:
whining to the race director over every little incident

That could easily be squelched by penalties for complaints deemed without merit.

Mr. Malarkey · Dec 6, 2021

blekenbleu said:
.. because competitors could easily kill them.

I don't think that's the reason. I think it's because they were just respectful, decent adults and not overgrown spoiled brats.

If the only reason people are respectful to one another is that they are afraid of being hurt or killed, then any faith I have in humanity is lost.

LeSunTzu · Dec 6, 2021

Don't lose faith, this is F1, an ultra competitive microcosm, not the real world.

Milos · Dec 6, 2021

Enagee said:
Why do you think Massi was bargaining with Redbull at the restart? why did Redbull accept the grid change? Going to the stewards would be a harsher penalty which would have put Max in a far worse position and Massi knows!

Not bargaining.
We can both agree Max's overtake was illegal (even Red Bull agrees). Also, Max had no time to give back the position to Hamilton, since the red flag was shown early after the restart. The "deal" was on Max to decide whether to give the place back, like he had to decide later in the race. They made it sound like bargaining because they couldn't properly explain to Red Bull where Max would start, and using the word "deal" instead of "decision"? (probably deliberately for the TV drama)

Enagee said:
I'll be interested to hear your reasons why would the FIA would give "presents to Mercedes" and Lewis....

Consider the last 2 races. Whenever Max was summoned, FIA found penalties. Whenever Lewis was summoned, they found excuses to avoid a penalty. Bottas they even failed to summon once, despite that contact with Giovinazzi in Q2 which was even worse than Lewis/Mazepin, and almost taking out Max again (why don't they look at that telemetry? He broke later when Max was directly in front?) and obviously holding up Max to allow a double pitstop.
I want to know their reason too honestly, maybe Mercedes lobbies them with $$$$££££€€€€? In the middle-eastern races anyway? (adding Bahrain too and Max's rushed overtake, which they were quick to penalize)

Enagee · Dec 6, 2021

Milos said:
Not bargaining.
We can both agree Max's overtake was illegal (even Red Bull agrees). Also, Max had no time to give back the position to Hamilton, since the red flag was shown early after the restart. The "deal" was on Max to decide whether to give the place back, like he had to decide later in the race. They made it sound like bargaining because they couldn't properly explain to Red Bull where Max would start, and using the word "deal" instead of "decision"? (probably deliberately for the TV drama)

Consider the last 2 races. Whenever Max was summoned, FIA found penalties. Whenever Lewis was summoned, they found excuses to avoid a penalty. Bottas they even failed to summon once, despite that contact with Giovinazzi in Q2 which was even worse than Lewis/Mazepin, and almost taking out Max again (why don't they look at that telemetry? He broke later when Max was directly in front?) and obviously holding up Max to allow a double pitstop.
I want to know their reason too honestly, maybe Mercedes lobbies them with $$$$££££€€€€? In the middle-eastern races anyway? (adding Bahrain too and Max's rushed overtake, which they were quick to penalize)

Let it out.... Ahhhhhhh........
Now you can breathe!!

Mr. Malarkey · Dec 6, 2021

Milos said:
Not bargaining.
We can both agree Max's overtake was illegal (even Red Bull agrees). Also, Max had no time to give back the position to Hamilton, since the red flag was shown early after the restart. The "deal" was on Max to decide whether to give the place back, like he had to decide later in the race. They made it sound like bargaining because they couldn't properly explain to Red Bull where Max would start, and using the word "deal" instead of "decision"? (probably deliberately for the TV drama)

Consider the last 2 races. Whenever Max was summoned, FIA found penalties. Whenever Lewis was summoned, they found excuses to avoid a penalty. Bottas they even failed to summon once, despite that contact with Giovinazzi in Q2 which was even worse than Lewis/Mazepin, and almost taking out Max again (why don't they look at that telemetry? He broke later when Max was directly in front?) and obviously holding up Max to allow a double pitstop.
I want to know their reason too honestly, maybe Mercedes lobbies them with $$$$££££€€€€? In the middle-eastern races anyway? (adding Bahrain too and Max's rushed overtake, which they were quick to penalize)

Why would the FIA do that? What do they have to gain by alienating all of Max's fans? (And judging by the Driver Of The Day votes, there are more Max fans than Ham fans.) The FIA has allowed the teams to bully them into bending the rules so far that they aren't even clear any more. (Why do they only enforce track limits at some corners and not others, and why are some track limits the curbs, while others are the white lines - just as an example.) It's inevitable that they are going to end up enforcing vague rules on an inconsistent basis.

The conspiracy theories being thrown around by both Max and Ham fans are silly.

Milos · Dec 6, 2021

Enagee said:
Let it out.... Ahhhhhhh........
Now you can breathe!!

Oh my bad, I forgot I can't reason with Lewis fans..because you guys can only provoke when met with facts.
Enjoy Abu Dhabi, because you will see Lewis be crowned 8-time champ! (and 9..and 10..and 11)

Mr. Malarkey said:
Why would the FIA do that? What do they have to gain by alienating all of Max's fans?

I'm also curious why that is, but this is just how it is. I'm no Max fan by the way, I'd rather see a non-Mercedes win for at least 1 year because this may be the last chance for that until 2025.

Mr. Malarkey · Dec 6, 2021

LeSunTzu said:
Don't lose faith, this is F1, an ultra competitive microcosm, not the real world.

Well, I was exaggerating a bit for effect.

RichardHessels · Dec 6, 2021

Just my humble opinion. Verstapppen was triggered in to this by Mercedes.
Who started the first dirty tricks.

First Chapter.
Verstappen had a normal start, bit of lock up. But he was doing his laps driving 3rd, did not try anything on the edge.
Full course yellow.

Faul 1:
Bottas is starting to drive very slowly, making the gap between him and Hamilton a lot larger. He know Verstappen is not allowed to pass.
The gaps grows to about 5 seconds. No penalty or warning what so ever. So there was more time to do a double pitstop and more space between Hamilton and Verstappen. Win/WIn.

Faul 2
The race starts again, Hamilton leaves a extremely large gap behind Verstappen while they lineup. he is only allowed 10 cars lenghts, he takes the whole straight and has much more time warming up his tires and brakes..
Making Verstappen stand still much too long, while his brakes and tires are only getting colder.
No penalty or warning what so ever.

Faul 3
Than we get the restart, Hamilton with hotter tires get a better start.
Than he drives Max off the track. Have a look at the picture below.

No way Hamilton only had the slightest intention to leave space.
He is not even steering slightly towards the next corner.
Verstappen needs to correct to not drive in to Hamilton.
From the normal TV angle you could not see it, but there is tons of space on the left side of Hamilton. While Verstappen looks in his rear mirror, seeing dozens of cars coming at him. Bottas in full lockup, right behind. Just out of this picture.
Next thing split second everybody makes the corner and Verstappen is front.
But he got drivin off the track first.
Than the bullshitting started.
When Hamiton was making a pass at the same position he drove exactly the same line as he got given before.
Than Verstappen gave back his position, I admit, trying at a bit of strange spot.
But his team just ordered it, to do it on a strategical point.
Why the heck was Hamilton going 3 gears back just like Verstappen still beats me.
My guess is he was so focussed on Verstappen, he did not know how to handle the situation.
If he would have lifted his foot anywhere on the track, Verstappen would have passed him, already.

Last part, when Hamilton finally passed Verstappen at the last corner (like both of them before) just drove Verstappen off the track.
While there is way enough space for both of them at the widest part of the track (15 meters)

And Hamilton got a official warning for that.
Hamilton won the race, he was a few tenths faster, no doubt.

But in my opinion, both where doing faul play.
And Mercedes started with it.

Although Hamilton deserved to win, as in any scenario he would the fastest car on track.

tr1v1um · Dec 6, 2021

RichardHessels said:
Just my humble opinion. Verstapppen was triggered in to this by Mercedes.
Who started the first dirty tricks.

First Chapter.
Verstappen had a normal start, bit of lock up. But he was doing his laps driving 3rd, did not try anything on the edge.
Full course yellow.

Faul 1:
Bottas is starting to drive very slowly, making the gap between him and Hamilton a lot larger. He know Verstappen is not allowed to pass.
The gaps grows to about 5 seconds. No penalty or warning what so ever. So there was more time to do a double pitstop and more space between Hamilton and Verstappen. Win/WIn.

Faul 2
The race starts again, Hamilton leaves a extremely large gap behind Verstappen while they lineup. he is only allowed 10 cars lenghts, he takes the whole straight and has much more time warming up his tires and brakes..
Making Verstappen stand still much too long, while his brakes and tires are only getting colder.
No penalty or warning what so ever.

Faul 3
Than we get the restart, Hamilton with hotter tires get a better start.
Than he drives Max off the track. Have a look at the picture below.
View attachment 523168
No way Hamilton only had the slightest intention to leave space.
He is not even steering slightly towards the next corner.
Verstappen needs to correct to not drive in to Hamilton.
From the normal TV angle you could not see it, but there is tons of space on the left side of Hamilton. While Verstappen looks in his rear mirror, seeing dozens of cars coming at him. Bottas in full lockup, right behind. Just out of this picture.
Next thing split second everybody makes the corner and Verstappen is front.
But he got drivin off the track first.
Than the bullshitting started.
When Hamiton was making a pass at the same position he drove exactly the same line as he got given before.
Than Verstappen gave back his position, I admit, trying at a bit of strange spot.
But his team just ordered it, to do it on a strategical point.
Why the heck was Hamilton going 3 gears back just like Verstappen still beats me.
My guess is he was so focussed on Verstappen, he did not know how to handle the situation.
If he would have lifted his foot anywhere on the track, Verstappen would have passed him, already.

Last part, when Hamilton finally passed Verstappen at the last corner (like both of them before) just drove Verstappen off the track.
While there is way enough space for both of them at the widest part of the track (15 meters)
View attachment 523170
And Hamilton got a official warning for that.
Hamilton won the race, he was a few tenths faster, no doubt.

But in my opinion, both where doing faul play.
And Mercedes started with it.

Although Hamilton deserved to win, as in any scenario he would the fastest car on track.

Finaly someone with some common sense. From my perspective both of them were playing dirty games and I am suprised that Hamilton only got a warning for launching similar moves, ignoring yellow flags during practice while Verstappen got all the penalties that the Stewards had at their hand throughout the last couple of races, besides the move in Brazil wich would have varanted a penalty from my POV. That said, Lewis was no saint either throughout the season and only got one single penalty.

I am not sure, but it's hard to take this circuit seriously when rules are applied different for each driver. I am still not sure if the Bazar after the first restart was even legal. My impression is that they would have needed to make the restart in the order that they had before the first restart, so Max on p1, Lewis 2nd, Bottas 3rd. What Max did after the first restart was pretty much copy paste of what the other drivers in the field did and there were no penalties - wierd. And Lewis was clearly not aiming for the apex in T1. Why are there two instant penalties for Max when Lewis gets a warning after his second similar move? What's up with no start practice in the pit lane, not more than ten cars behind the SC, or Bottas playing the roadblock? What the hell is going on?

And then you have Lewis intentionaly ramming into Verstappen. Who ever thinks that they weren't playing with each other at that point, needs a doctor. There were like 10 metres of space left of Max. So what is the Sir doing? Yep, let's aim for the diffusor. If this would have been Mazepin the comments would be different and I am not sure how a 7 time WC is able to miss that space with the size of a barn door. Anyway, I have the feeling that this title won't be decided on track, as alot of desicions made by stewards and Massi led to the situation that we have today.

Mr. Malarkey · Dec 6, 2021

tr1v1um said:
I have the feeling that this title won't be decided on track, as alot of desicions made by stewards and Massi led to the situation that we have today.

I sure hope not, but I'm afraid you may be right.

We've gone 22 pages (and counting) on this thread. Can you imagine what the next race thread will be like a week from now if you are right?

Amereto1 · Dec 6, 2021

RichardHessels said:
Just my humble opinion. Verstapppen was triggered in to this by Mercedes.
Who started the first dirty tricks.

First Chapter.
Verstappen had a normal start, bit of lock up. But he was doing his laps driving 3rd, did not try anything on the edge.
Full course yellow.

Faul 1:
Bottas is starting to drive very slowly, making the gap between him and Hamilton a lot larger. He know Verstappen is not allowed to pass.
The gaps grows to about 5 seconds. No penalty or warning what so ever. So there was more time to do a double pitstop and more space between Hamilton and Verstappen. Win/WIn.

Faul 2
The race starts again, Hamilton leaves a extremely large gap behind Verstappen while they lineup. he is only allowed 10 cars lenghts, he takes the whole straight and has much more time warming up his tires and brakes..
Making Verstappen stand still much too long, while his brakes and tires are only getting colder.
No penalty or warning what so ever.

Faul 3
Than we get the restart, Hamilton with hotter tires get a better start.
Than he drives Max off the track. Have a look at the picture below.
View attachment 523168
No way Hamilton only had the slightest intention to leave space.
He is not even steering slightly towards the next corner.
Verstappen needs to correct to not drive in to Hamilton.
From the normal TV angle you could not see it, but there is tons of space on the left side of Hamilton. While Verstappen looks in his rear mirror, seeing dozens of cars coming at him. Bottas in full lockup, right behind. Just out of this picture.
Next thing split second everybody makes the corner and Verstappen is front.
But he got drivin off the track first.
Than the bullshitting started.
When Hamiton was making a pass at the same position he drove exactly the same line as he got given before.
Than Verstappen gave back his position, I admit, trying at a bit of strange spot.
But his team just ordered it, to do it on a strategical point.
Why the heck was Hamilton going 3 gears back just like Verstappen still beats me.
My guess is he was so focussed on Verstappen, he did not know how to handle the situation.
If he would have lifted his foot anywhere on the track, Verstappen would have passed him, already.

Last part, when Hamilton finally passed Verstappen at the last corner (like both of them before) just drove Verstappen off the track.
While there is way enough space for both of them at the widest part of the track (15 meters)
View attachment 523170
And Hamilton got a official warning for that.
Hamilton won the race, he was a few tenths faster, no doubt.

But in my opinion, both where doing faul play.
And Mercedes started with it.

Although Hamilton deserved to win, as in any scenario he would the fastest car on track.

Faul 1
There is a delta time you have to stick to on a VSC lap, you can speed up or slow down within the 40% lap speed meaning Bottas could legally slow down so long as he reaches the next sector at the right delta, the same reason Hamilton was getting close to Verstappen on the other VSC's then slowing down to his delta.

Faul 2
10 car lengths only applies to the original formation lap not red flag restarts it's in the rules, Masi even explained this to Redbull.

Faul 3
Really!! To complain about being forced off the track after Brazil, that set the tone on what's acceptable, facilitated by the stewards not stamping out that driving, go back and look at the Barcelona move Max done and what Horner said about it.
Hamilton got a warning of a possible black and white flag and his car didn't leave the track, In Brazil Verstappens car was off the track by about 4 car widths and the stewards didn't even want to look at the incident. lol!

Trezoitao38 · Dec 6, 2021

RichardHessels said:
Faul 3
Than we get the restart, Hamilton with hotter tires get a better start.
Than he drives Max off the track. Have a look at the picture below.
View attachment 523168

Pictures are always worse to analyze things like this. If you pick a picture just seconds before you will see that Verstappen was not side by side. He acelerate (at one point of the track that you still are doing the corner and cant really throttle there) to be side by side in a desperate maneuver.

He does this everywhere because he is the champioship leader. He does everything to avoid a overtake from Hamilton.

As someone else said, everytime Verstappen does those things he cant make the corners, he is always going off the track.

williang83 · Dec 6, 2021

RichardHessels said:
Just my humble opinion. Verstapppen was triggered in to this by Mercedes.
Who started the first dirty tricks.

First Chapter.
Verstappen had a normal start, bit of lock up. But he was doing his laps driving 3rd, did not try anything on the edge.
Full course yellow.

Faul 1:
Bottas is starting to drive very slowly, making the gap between him and Hamilton a lot larger. He know Verstappen is not allowed to pass.
The gaps grows to about 5 seconds. No penalty or warning what so ever. So there was more time to do a double pitstop and more space between Hamilton and Verstappen. Win/WIn.

Faul 2
The race starts again, Hamilton leaves a extremely large gap behind Verstappen while they lineup. he is only allowed 10 cars lenghts, he takes the whole straight and has much more time warming up his tires and brakes..
Making Verstappen stand still much too long, while his brakes and tires are only getting colder.
No penalty or warning what so ever.

Faul 3
Than we get the restart, Hamilton with hotter tires get a better start.
Than he drives Max off the track. Have a look at the picture below.
View attachment 523168
No way Hamilton only had the slightest intention to leave space.
He is not even steering slightly towards the next corner.
Verstappen needs to correct to not drive in to Hamilton.
From the normal TV angle you could not see it, but there is tons of space on the left side of Hamilton. While Verstappen looks in his rear mirror, seeing dozens of cars coming at him. Bottas in full lockup, right behind. Just out of this picture.
Next thing split second everybody makes the corner and Verstappen is front.
But he got drivin off the track first.
Than the bullshitting started.
When Hamiton was making a pass at the same position he drove exactly the same line as he got given before.
Than Verstappen gave back his position, I admit, trying at a bit of strange spot.
But his team just ordered it, to do it on a strategical point.
Why the heck was Hamilton going 3 gears back just like Verstappen still beats me.
My guess is he was so focussed on Verstappen, he did not know how to handle the situation.
If he would have lifted his foot anywhere on the track, Verstappen would have passed him, already.

Last part, when Hamilton finally passed Verstappen at the last corner (like both of them before) just drove Verstappen off the track.
While there is way enough space for both of them at the widest part of the track (15 meters)
View attachment 523170
And Hamilton got a official warning for that.
Hamilton won the race, he was a few tenths faster, no doubt.

But in my opinion, both where doing faul play.
And Mercedes started with it.

Although Hamilton deserved to win, as in any scenario he would the fastest car on track.

Look another Max shill that have ZERO knowledge about F1 OFFICIAL RULES and speak as if he has any sort of wisdom, which clearly not.

SC issues never exist simply because the rule say so officially, the only time where FIA was faithful to their own rules.

There is clearly a narrative to have a different winner and FIA has been acting according throughout the whole season where if they penalized MAX the first time, everything would have been different.
Many many times Max kept the track position just because of dirty/illegal moves where he never were punished for. I have zero doubt to believe that after a couple of punishment he would have changed his approach but that never happened.

That being said the biggest one to be in faulty is not Max per sè but rather the FIA as a whole.

Dirty drivers like Max does not deserve to win. I can understand one in a season situation but this is just becoming ridiculous and he definitely do not deserve to win the championship.

Edit: I forgot about the overtake, well freezing the picture and saying that is pathetic at best. Max deliberately brake way later than what should have been, with the clear intention to either overtake outside or colliding. That;s what they aim for the whole race.

Be honest, RB is the dirties team by far. I just feel pity for Max, because he has talent, no doubt, but with mentors like Horner, Markur and his Father he is just becoming more and more toxic in race.

cpubound · Dec 6, 2021

LeSunTzu said:
Don't lose faith, this is F1, an ultra competitive microcosm, not the real world.

If you even a passing interest in the way big buisness opperates in the world, then you'll see it is the real world.
Coruption and bribes and basically buying governments and the places that are meant to regulate them...
And that is just big Pharma....

McGherkin · Dec 6, 2021

I think what’s most embarassing is that this is a simracing forum. You would expect that everybody would have a decent understanding of racecraft and car physics. I could see immediately from Max’s onboard that he’d brakechecked Lewis at the last moment, and that was before the telemetry proved it to be true, and yet people were still bleating on that Max was slowing gently even though he was partially locking his rear wheels bogging the engine down

And you’d expect people to understand that braking 40-50m late for a corner, running wide on the exit and rejoining ahead is completely illegal. I mean noobs do that on Gran Turismo. When Max went around the outside he didn’t even have enough steering lock to physically make it back to the kerb for T2 because he’d overshot so far in T1, Lewis could have been sat at home and it wouldn’t have made the blindest bit of difference to Max’s chances of making it around that corner and staying on track.

What’s annoying is that he CAN drive brilliantly - his move on Hamilton on the restart going 3 wide into T1 was amazing. If it weren’t for the rest of his conduct he’d be remembered in this race as having fought hard but not having had a chance against a far quicker Mercedes. Instead he will be remembered as someone who completely drove his opponent off the track at every opportunity, brakechecked him to try and cause a DNF, ultimately completely lost his cool and composure and then stormed out of the trophy ceremony like a spoilt child.

I think if that’s what you support as a simracer then it makes me lose hope in the sport.

2021 Formula One Saudi Arabian Grand Prix

Who will win the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix?

Max Verstappen

Lewis Hamilton

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Damage Inc

Enagee

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blekenbleu

Mr. Malarkey

LeSunTzu

Milos

Enagee

Mr. Malarkey

Milos

Mr. Malarkey

RichardHessels

tr1v1um

Mr. Malarkey

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