2023 Formula One British Grand Prix

TRASGU · Jul 10, 2023

muzikant said:
I understand what you are saying, but wasn't it Verstappen who split the Mercedes for seasons in Qualifying. Mercedes by far the best car in all seasons. With party mode! If we talk about greatness! What you say about Schumacher certainly applies to Verstappen. Max destroy and demoted all teammates the man has already proven himself a long, long time ago!!!

Try to read it again, to me he is an all time great, we are very privileged to have at least 3 all time greats right now on the grid. All I'm saying is that dominating cars distort how the people perceive the drivers.

I have felt that Verstappen was perfectly capable to mount a title challenge since 2017, I was shunned for saying it because everybody and their dog believed the crashtappen narrative. It was obvious that Renault had a engine so severely underpowered that the only way to overtake cars with a lot more acceleration and top speed was only by dive bombing, that inevitably leads to contacts.

How else you are going to overtake a car 10 to 19km/h faster that also accelerates way faster out of the corners?, he was getting behind the slipstream with DRS and sometimes the car ahead was pulling away despite that.

He himself said back then that once he had a championship capable car he would drive with a different more calm approach, he told that with a competitive car you don't need to take big risks anymore an that consistency was going to be key.

Nodoby believed him, they took it as him low key slandering Hamilton, but from 2021 onwards he proved that he was right all along. And nowadays people still keep believing that crashtappen narrative and acting as if he wasn't ready back then.

You don't win record amounts of karting championships with iron fist by being a crash prone driver, those championships are all about consistently performing at top level and consistently finishing races in were in a qualifying session you have 40 cars qualify in the same second as the poleman.

But that said doesn't mean that he is an unbeatable racing god like some people are starting to overhype him due to the OP car and weak team mate, no driver ever has been as good as people are sayin he is now nor how the british press was telling us that Lewis was.

I also don't even believe the stupid narrative of the 20 best drivers in the world in F1, I'm convinced that Van Gisbergen, Palou and many others are capable to win F1 races with equal machinery than the rest of drivers.

I'm sure that on equal machinery the top drivers still would still be top drivers, but drivers that now are seen as grid fodder could win some races here and there and being very uncomfortably closer to the top drivers than most fans believe, and the inverse, some top drivers could be exposed as Vettel was twice.

Car performance distort how the fans perceive the drivers quality, Verstappen didn't learn how to drive suddenly in 2021 nor Lewis suddenly stopped being crash prone to become a rock solid winning powerhouse in 2014. Now people act as if Leclerc right now is a moron, a qualifiying one trick pony. But at the start of 2022 when he had the fastest car he seemed unbeatable and rock solid.

Russel seemed godly at Williams, now feels pedestrian at Mercedes, Gasly seemed trash against Verstappen, then Godly in Alpha Tauri, and now grid fodder at Alpine.
Any of those drivers had the same skill at any team, is the car performance and how weak or strong their team mate is that shapes how they are perceived by most of the fans.

muzikant · Jul 10, 2023

TRASGU said:
Try to read it again, to me he is an all time great, we are very privileged to have at least 3 all time greats right now on the grid. All I'm saying is that dominating cars distort how the people perceive the drivers.

I have felt that Verstappen was perfectly capable to mount a title challenge since 2017, I was shunned for saying it because everybody and their dog believed the crashtappen narrative. It was obvious that Renault had a engine so severely underpowered that the only way to overtake cars with a lot more acceleration and top speed was only by dive bombing, that inevitably leads to contacts.

How else you are going to overtake a car 10 to 19km/h faster that also accelerates way faster out of the corners?, he was getting behind the slipstream with DRS and sometimes the car ahead was pulling away despite that.

He himself said back then that once he had a championship capable car he would drive with a different more calm approach, he told that with a competitive car you don't need to take big risks anymore an that consistency was going to be key.

Nodoby believed him, they took it as him low key slandering Hamilton, but from 2021 onwards he proved that he was right all along. And nowadays people still keep believing that crashtappen narrative and acting as if he wasn't ready back then.

You don't win record amounts of karting championships with iron fist by being a crash prone driver, those championships are all about consistently performing at top level and consistently finishing races in were in a qualifying session you have 40 cars qualify in the same second as the poleman.

But that said doesn't mean that he is an unbeatable racing god like some people are starting to overhype him due to the OP car and weak team mate, no driver ever has been as good as people are sayin he is now nor how the british press was telling us that Lewis was.

I also don't even believe the stupid narrative of the 20 best drivers in the world in F1, I'm convinced that Van Gisbergen, Palou and many others are capable to win F1 races with equal machinery than the rest of drivers.

I'm sure that on equal machinery the top drivers still would still be top drivers, but drivers that now are seen as grid fodder could win some races here and there and being very uncomfortably closer to the top drivers than most fans believe, and the inverse, some top drivers could be exposed as Vettel was twice.

Car performance distort how the fans perceive the drivers quality, Verstappen didn't learn how to drive suddenly in 2021 nor Lewis suddenly stopped being crash prone to become a rock solid winning powerhouse in 2014. Now people act as if Leclerc right now is a moron, a qualifiying one trick pony. But at the start of 2022 when he had the fastest car he seemed unbeatable and rock solid.

Russel seemed godly at Williams, now feels pedestrian at Mercedes, Gasly seemed trash against Verstappen, then Godly in Alpha Tauri, and now grid fodder at Alpine.
Any of those drivers had the same skill at any team, is the car performance and how weak or strong their team mate is that shapes how they are perceived by most of the fans.

I have also defended Max a lot over the years on RD. Resulting in many heated discussions.
The crash-stappen guys don't come here to discuss anymore

And I know who they are because they were here with every discussion

until he loses again, then they will come again. That's how it goes in every sport, winners come and go. But I soon saw that Max was a great talent. perhaps the biggest after Senna and Jim Clark

MichaWa · Jul 10, 2023

What a boring F1 season. Without Max it would be quite exciting, but so you can only bet when he has the third world title secure. My money is on Suzuka...

Glück auf!

Pete Conway · Jul 10, 2023

TRASGU said:
Try to read it again, to me he is an all time great, we are very privileged to have at least 3 all time greats right now on the grid. All I'm saying is that dominating cars distort how the people perceive the drivers.

I have felt that Verstappen was perfectly capable to mount a title challenge since 2017, I was shunned for saying it because everybody and their dog believed the crashtappen narrative. It was obvious that Renault had a engine so severely underpowered that the only way to overtake cars with a lot more acceleration and top speed was only by dive bombing, that inevitably leads to contacts.

How else you are going to overtake a car 10 to 19km/h faster that also accelerates way faster out of the corners?, he was getting behind the slipstream with DRS and sometimes the car ahead was pulling away despite that.

He himself said back then that once he had a championship capable car he would drive with a different more calm approach, he told that with a competitive car you don't need to take big risks anymore an that consistency was going to be key.

Nodoby believed him, they took it as him low key slandering Hamilton, but from 2021 onwards he proved that he was right all along. And nowadays people still keep believing that crashtappen narrative and acting as if he wasn't ready back then.

You don't win record amounts of karting championships with iron fist by being a crash prone driver, those championships are all about consistently performing at top level and consistently finishing races in were in a qualifying session you have 40 cars qualify in the same second as the poleman.

But that said doesn't mean that he is an unbeatable racing god like some people are starting to overhype him due to the OP car and weak team mate, no driver ever has been as good as people are sayin he is now nor how the british press was telling us that Lewis was.

I also don't even believe the stupid narrative of the 20 best drivers in the world in F1, I'm convinced that Van Gisbergen, Palou and many others are capable to win F1 races with equal machinery than the rest of drivers.

I'm sure that on equal machinery the top drivers still would still be top drivers, but drivers that now are seen as grid fodder could win some races here and there and being very uncomfortably closer to the top drivers than most fans believe, and the inverse, some top drivers could be exposed as Vettel was twice.

Car performance distort how the fans perceive the drivers quality, Verstappen didn't learn how to drive suddenly in 2021 nor Lewis suddenly stopped being crash prone to become a rock solid winning powerhouse in 2014. Now people act as if Leclerc right now is a moron, a qualifiying one trick pony. But at the start of 2022 when he had the fastest car he seemed unbeatable and rock solid.

Russel seemed godly at Williams, now feels pedestrian at Mercedes, Gasly seemed trash against Verstappen, then Godly in Alpha Tauri, and now grid fodder at Alpine.
Any of those drivers had the same skill at any team, is the car performance and how weak or strong their team mate is that shapes how they are perceived by most of the fans.

I think a lot of it boils down to how 'in love' with that car the driver is, Vettle had his sweetheart with the blown defuser and a very tight rear end, when the car was designed with a different philosophy he wasn't as 'in love' the same can be said for every driver on the grid, they're all godly drivers that would put the layman to shame in even a mundane car but they've been taught how to drive competitively since they were 4-5 years old... it's what they do.

Jim Clark was probably the greatest 'natural' talent ever, but there are drivers on the grid that would beat him outright were they on the same grid in the same machine now, the level of training and fitness, (and even the diets) that F1 drivers have undergone is responsible for that.
I remember Michael Schumacher nerfing Senna out in France in 92 , I said right then "he a future Champion" and when he took his first Victory a few races later at Spa... he didn't even break a sweat when he was on the podium, and I (along with the rest of the world) realised that fitness had become one of the most important factors in modern Grand Prix.
As for the greats, that's really about stats and a personal opinion that sways results (I always wanted JPM to do well but he was just too 'old school' Mansellish, but hell, he was entertaining)

For me Verstappen is right up there with the greats on the grid today, he's doing a better job and he's just honest about the way he sees things, as Martin Brundle said "of all the drivers on the grid I'd rather go for a beer with Max because he's honest and tells it how he sees it"

Damage Inc · Jul 10, 2023

I can't believe no-ones talking about the worst thing about the race......that APPALLING anthem. WTF thought that would be a good idea?!!!! Made me want to rip my ear drums out!

Turk · Jul 10, 2023

Pete Conway said:
Jim Clark was probably the greatest 'natural' talent ever, but there are drivers on the grid that would beat him outright were they on the same grid in the same machine now, the level of training and fitness, (and even the diets) that F1 drivers have undergone is responsible for that.

The fact is modern drivers are educated in ways that were impossible even 30 years ago. The training, the sim experience and the feedback from telemetry make modern drivers a completely different kettle of fish to drivers in the past who were in a lot of ways winging it.

Alex Albon is really showing his class this year. He's outdriving that Williams.

muzikant · Jul 10, 2023

Damage Inc said:
I can't believe no-ones talking about the worst thing about the race......that APPALLING anthem. WTF thought that would be a good idea?!!!! Made me want to rip my ear drums out!

what national anthem do you mean? There were several

muzikant · Jul 10, 2023

Turk said:
The fact is modern drivers are educated in ways that were impossible even 30 years ago. The training, the sim experience and the feedback from telemetry make modern drivers a completely different kettle of fish to drivers in the past who were in a lot of ways winging it.

Alex Albon is really showing his class this year. He's outdriving that Williams.

I partly agree with you, but a strong mindset can never be learned (performance under pressure) I think Norris and Leclerc are just as great talents as Verstappen. Only I wouldn't know how they perform under world championship pressure?? As an example I take Jean Alesi and Jarno Trulli. two great talents that were never where they should be

Celestiale · Jul 10, 2023

Great race and finally Mclaren has a decent car again. I just hope this translates also to other tracks with different profiles. For me Norris is the second best driver of the grid and thus I am just happy that he has a car where he can show it. Now let's see if they can catch Ferrari and Aston

WC is probably settled as long as Max sits in a car that is the best on the grid (or even close to the best). My hopes for an interesting title challenge are low (or rather non-existant) until 2026.

TRASGU · Jul 10, 2023

Turk said:
The fact is modern drivers are educated in ways that were impossible even 30 years ago. The training, the sim experience and the feedback from telemetry make modern drivers a completely different kettle of fish to drivers in the past who were in a lot of ways winging it.

Alex Albon is really showing his class this year. He's outdriving that Williams.

You are right in a way, but that is a double edge argument. We can also argue that it isn't possible to know if current drivers would be as fast as the drivers of old without the modern training, telemetry and safety of our era. There is no way to compare them in a fair way.

And we can go even further and argue that some drivers of the past maybe could have the kind of natural skill and intuition as to find for themselves how to perform at 2023 top level growing in their own era environment without simulators and modern knowledge.

Fangio even knew about the friction circle theory in the 50's, who knows if 26 years old Clark or Fangio could be as fast as current top F1 drivers in their era cars?. We can argue that their physical training was subpar. But back then they also used enhancing drugs that made them capable to mantain a higher level of concentration for longer, get less fatigue and increase their stamina, those drugs were there available as surplus from what the armies used in WW2. That may or may not could make up for their lack of physical prowess.

We can't compare them with current drivers or throw shade on them based on recency bias, we will never know how a modern driver would fare to them if he had born in their era nor how the drivers of the past would perform if they had born in the current era.

For that reason I believe that they should only be considered all time greats accounting their historical background and comparing them against the rivals they had to face of on their own era instead of comparing performance on face value.

We tend to subconsciously believe that people of the past were dumber, they just had less technology and knowledge. That's the reason why some people still keep believing that the pyramids couldn't be built by the egyptians. People of the past were every bit as smart and capable as modern people, they were genetically almost identical after all.

Damage Inc · Jul 10, 2023

muzikant said:
what national anthem do you mean? There were several

at the start of the race,

muzikant · Jul 10, 2023

Damage Inc said:
at the start of the race,

I don't mind it. it's taken off the indy 500 a little bit. But everyone is different

muzikant · Jul 10, 2023

TRASGU said:
You are right in a way, but that is a double edge argument. We can also argue that it isn't possible to know if current drivers would be as fast as the drivers of old without the modern training, telemetry and safety of our era. There is no way to compare them in a fair way.

And we can go even further and argue that some drivers of the past maybe could have the kind of natural skill and intuition as to find for themselves how to perform at 2023 top level growing in their own era environment without simulators and modern knowledge.

Fangio even knew about the friction circle theory in the 50's, who knows if 26 years old Clark or Fangio could be as fast as current top F1 drivers in their era cars?. We can argue that their physical training was subpar. But back then they also used enhancing drugs that made them capable to mantain a higher level of concentration for longer, get less fatigue and increase their stamina, those drugs were there available as surplus from what the armies used in WW2. That may or may not could make up for their lack of physical prowess.

We can't compare them with current drivers or throw shade on them based on recency bias, we will never know how a modern driver would fare to them if he had born in their era nor how the drivers of the past would perform if they had born in the current era.

For that reason I believe that they should only be considered all time greats accounting their historical background and comparing them against the rivals they had to face of on their own era instead of comparing performance on face value.

We tend to subconsciously believe that people of the past were dumber, they just had less technology and knowledge. That's the reason why some people still keep believing that the pyramids couldn't be built by the egyptians. People of the past were every bit as smart and capable as modern people, they were genetically almost identical after all.

You say a lot of good things Mr. Trasgu!!
And don't forget the danger that was there then, a little bit of bad luck on the car meant you died

Richard Wilks · Jul 10, 2023

Why do we have to copy the americans with this national anthem thing before sporting events anyways?... its a sporting event, not a military parade, or a national holiday...

Turk · Jul 10, 2023

TRASGU said:
You are right in a way, but that is a double edge argument. We can also argue that it isn't possible to know if current drivers would be as fast as the drivers of old without the modern training, telemetry and safety of our era. There is no way to compare them in a fair way.

If they had access to the same tech and training (basically if they were born today) they'd be the same as a modern driver, my point is they didn't have any of that. It allowed one driver to find an advantage that no one else knew about. That's all gone now. There aren't any big leaps left to make the minimum standard has been raised to the point any modern driver sent back in time to compete would probably be unbeatable.

Damage Inc · Jul 10, 2023

muzikant said:
I don't mind it. it's taken off the indy 500 a little bit. But everyone is different

god no!!! It was baaaaaaaaad!!!! rightfully getting a slaughtering in the press!!

markg88 · Jul 10, 2023

Turk said:
The fact is modern drivers are educated in ways that were impossible even 30 years ago. The training, the sim experience and the feedback from telemetry make modern drivers a completely different kettle of fish to drivers in the past who were in a lot of ways winging it.

Alex Albon is really showing his class this year. He's outdriving that Williams.

Drivers of 'the past' didn't have all the telemetry and data to compare their own driving with others' data. The best drivers of 'the past' were the more naturally gifted and bravest ones. The only way the lesser drivers could learn from them was not by analysing telemetry but by following them, if they were good enough to be close enough to learn. Racing cars nowadays is almost like a different sport.

paracletus · Jul 10, 2023

The calls for Perez to go from red bull are a bit weird; he's still dominating in 2nd place of the DC and has won two races.
Narrowly missed out on 2nd last year didn't he.

I don't remember such a witch hunt over botass' seat after getting 5th in the DC 2018 for example

Damage Inc · Jul 10, 2023

paracletus said:
The calls for Perez to go from red bull are a bit weird; he's still dominating in 2nd place of the DC and has won two races.
Narrowly missed out on 2nd last year didn't he.

I don't remember such a witch hunt over botass' seat after getting 5th in the DC 2018 for example

It's mainly Marko and Ricciardo fans doing it!

markg88 · Jul 10, 2023

paracletus said:
The calls for Perez to go from red bull are a bit weird; he's still dominating in 2nd place of the DC and has won two races.
Narrowly missed out on 2nd last year didn't he.

I don't remember such a witch hunt over botass' seat after getting 5th in the DC 2018 for example

Probably because the many Ham fans were quite happy with Bottas in the other Merc

2023 Formula One British Grand Prix

Who are you supporting at Silverstone this weekend?

Max Verstappen

Sergio Perez

Charles Leclerc

Carlos Sainz

Lewis Hamilton

George Russell

Lando Norris

Oscar Piastri

Fernando Alonso

Lance Stroll

Valtteri Bottas

Guanyu Zhou

Nyck De Vries

Yuki Tsunoda

Alex Albon

Logan Sargeant

Kevin Magnussen

Nico Hukenberg

Pierre Gasly

Esteban Ocon

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