RENNSPORT to Host Summit Event to Debut New Racing Simulator

It's always nice to have more sims in the market but tbh I'm not really interested to get my wallet out for another GT3 or GTE sim. We already have ACC which is already excellent, and we have RaceRoom and iRacing as runner ups.
Here's hoping for something that focuses on realistic open wheelers.

MadDriver11 said:

They dropped many "tire models" in their more than 10 years old history. It's not like they changed the physical approach iracing always had, but they significantly changed its tuning many times. Only Madness Engine and RF2 have physical tire models but nonetheless it doesn't mean they are all identical. Others use empirical models.
No matter how many iterations iracing made, the issues still remain today: there is no combined longitudinal and lateral grip available. As soon as you use any grip in a given direction there is none left in the other.
You can see it very well by the way cars are steered into corners using the rear brakes as a rudder instead of using the steering wheel and you can notice it by the fact that fast people run 48-49% brake bias at the front in cars like LMP2s or GT3s/PCup (you can often see that in Daniel Morad's streams). Basically as soon as you use any brakes the front wheels can't turn in the car anymore unless you make them very rear biased.
That alone is showing without any doubt how their tire model is far from real life behavior.

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I don't know why they moved this way, just speculate about, but fells like a game design choice. Their tire models used to be far more controllable and you aways felt to have some grip (this was by 2011 or so... can't remember exactly when, but remember perfectly how it worked). Probably the "sofa racer/engineers" believed that that was "too arcadish, because myyy goood'ollll Papyrus SSSSIMULAAAATORRRRRRRRRRRRS don't forgot misssstakes" (read this as if he is drooling) and Papyrus probably gave up for educate their public.

A lot of real drivers use to say that, usually, simulator physics are way more unforgiving than the real life. Racing simulator fans, unfortunately, tend to be very prepotent about their vision of what is real or not. The thing is, they forgive the physics flaws because the "game" side of iRacing is unmatchable... and because, let's be reasonable, none of the main sims are exempt of flaws... because of technological limitations, bad implementation of even the producer's concept of what is realistic. So, choosing a sim is all about of what you can ignore or just abstract. Bad news to people that believe that are choosing a simulator that is really superior to the others in physics department. The thing about iRacing is that at this exactly matter (tire simulation) it could be way better, AND IT USED TO BE... it's more a frustration that an allegation that it's a bad simulator.

stickdeath1980 said:

They spent alot of money on bringing alot of people and hosting this event...But to me just seemed like a esport's event.
-No coverage
-No Live stream Dev's Q & A live
if they want to get people on board,a video addressing all what happend during the weekend or hell try and make a community by livestreaming it getting people togther!!!!
Why bother teasing people?
just seem's pointless when getting these "esport's" people togther!!!
bet you'll find more bug's in your first day of Closed beta than you did at that event No only your the first sim on URE 5 wonder if you'll have the same proplem's ACC did at launch!!!
and wonder if people will need a nasa computer to run this

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Give it a few days and you'll probably see coverage. And perhaps the attendees will be able to speak openly after a few days too. Publicity is often staged like this with a temporary embargo--- time constraints set for when you can discuss things. That's why when a new car launches all the youtube channels launch their videos on the same day or close to it, they were embargoed after their publicity event.

Jugulador said:

I don't know why they moved this way, just speculate about, but fells like a game design choice. Their tire models used to be far more controllable and you aways felt to have some grip (this was by 2011 or so... can't remember exactly when, but remember perfectly how it worked). Probably the "sofa racer/engineers" believed that that was "too arcadish, because myyy goood'ollll Papyrus SSSSIMULAAAATORRRRRRRRRRRRS don't forgot misssstakes" (read this as if he is drooling) and Papyrus probably gave up for educate their public.

A lot of real drivers use to say that, usually, simulator physics are way more unforgiving than the real life. Racing simulator fans, unfortunately, tend to be very prepotent about their vision of what is real or not. The thing is, they forgive the physics flaws because the "game" side of iRacing is unmatchable... and because, let's be reasonable, none of the main sims are exempt of flaws... because of technological limitations, bad implementation of even the producer's concept of what is realistic. So, choosing a sim is all about of what you can ignore or just abstract. Bad news to people that believe that are choosing a simulator that is really superior to the others in physics department. The thing about iRacing is that at this exactly matter (tire simulation) it could be way better, AND IT USED TO BE... it's more a frustration that an allegation that it's a bad simulator.

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It is almost certain that iRacing make their tyre models the way they are by choice. It's simply not credible that Dave Kaemmer after 30 years of sim development wouldn't know how to develop tyre models that allow both longitudinal and lateral grip to be exploited.

Real-life pro drivers hate it when eSports aliens slide around unrealistically in virtual race cars (rF2 is infamous for this) and beat them by several seconds per lap. So better to make the cars undriveable across the limit, that way the pro drivers can use their superior talent to keep the car on the limit and beat all the riff-raff who have to drive far below the limit or spin out. Once you understand this, you understand why iRacing is designed the way it is.

I wonder if those 150 aliens are going to:

1- actively follow up with feedback about the development.
2- only say thanks for the money spent.

Jugulador said:

Racing simulator fans, unfortunately, tend to be very prepotent about their vision of what is real or not.

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So true.. a game with F1 that could do slides and saves like the ones seen last weekend would be laughed out of existence by a lot of these guys.

wolftree said:

Real-life pro drivers hate it when eSports aliens slide around unrealistically in virtual race cars (rF2 is infamous for this) and beat them by several seconds per lap. So better to make the cars undriveable across the limit, that way the pro drivers can use their superior talent to keep the car on the limit and beat all the riff-raff who have to drive far below the limit or spin out. Once you understand this, you understand why iRacing is designed the way it is.

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That's treating the symptoms, not curing the disease itself. The reason esport aliens are able to do this is because they have unlimited track time for testing setups and abusing the physics, unlike real life racers. Then they find loopholes and exploits in the physics model and make use of them.

Approaching online racing like real racing is thus a fallacy. They're governed by two different sets of presuppositions and only look alike on surface.

Stelcio said:

The reason esport aliens are able to do this is because they have unlimited track time for testing setups and abusing the physics, unlike real life racers. Then they find loopholes and exploits in the physics model and make use of them.

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Didn't GPL have some weird setup hacks that wouldn't be physically possible?

wolftree said:

It is almost certain that iRacing make their tyre models the way they are by choice. It's simply not credible that Dave Kaemmer after 30 years of sim development wouldn't know how to develop tyre models that allow both longitudinal and lateral grip to be exploited.

Real-life pro drivers hate it when eSports aliens slide around unrealistically in virtual race cars (rF2 is infamous for this) and beat them by several seconds per lap. So better to make the cars undriveable across the limit, that way the pro drivers can use their superior talent to keep the car on the limit and beat all the riff-raff who have to drive far below the limit or spin out. Once you understand this, you understand why iRacing is designed the way it is.

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All the pro drivers that do online race and I follow on YT are usually very humble about online competition and know that are two things completely different.

I see iRacing as the racing counterpart of DCS World, that is a very flawed simulator with a lot of pro pilots (military included) that flew it online, curse it's flaws and some generations of it's developers and still get back to it, because beside the bad stuff there is also a very good one, pending the scales in favor of the game.

Dave Kaemmer is the same kind of developer than Kazunori Yamauchi, that RACED AT FKNG LEMANS and yet always deliver outdated simulators that behave as simcades and because of these unrealism were always way harder to drive than more realistic sims (there is not even the excuse of "it's a simcade because of inclusion"). These noble gentleman are, before everything, businessmen that deeply understand their consumers. They deliver what people are expecting (even considering that GT loose a fair amount of fans from GT5 forward, but I can't blame the games because there is a context in each case). fFactor 2, AMS2, AC/ACC, Beam.NG, RR... in these games, the developers are more like very talented enthusiastic gamecrafters than businessmen... Stefano, here present, won't let me get wrong about it.

StefanoCasillo said:

So true.. a game with F1 that could do slides and saves like the ones seen last weekend would be laughed out of existence by a lot of these guys.

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There is an almost famous simulator considerably shunted by racing community (including some pseudo-famous Anglo-Saxon youtubers AND a large group of this forum's users) made by a small studio in Maringa-PR that have a fair collection of F1 cars THAT DO SOME SLIDING but the sofa drivers swear that is unrealistic.

Jugulador said:

All the pro drivers that do online race and I follow on YT are usually very humble about online competition and know that are two things completely different.

I see iRacing as the racing counterpart of DCS World, that is a very flawed simulator with a lot of pro pilots (military included) that flew it online, curse it's flaws and some generations of it's developers and still get back to it, because beside the bad stuff there is also a very good one, pending the scales in favor of the game.

Dave Kaemmer is the same kind of developer than Kazunori Yamauchi, that RACED AT FKNG LEMANS and yet always deliver outdated simulators that behave as simcades and because of these unrealism were always way harder to drive than more realistic sims (there is not even the excuse of "it's a simcade because of inclusion"). These noble gentleman are, before everything, businessmen that deeply understand their consumers. They deliver what people are expecting (even considering that GT loose a fair amount of fans from GT5 forward, but I can't blame the games because there is a context in each case). fFactor 2, AMS2, AC/ACC, Beam.NG, RR... in these games, the developers are more like very talented enthusiastic gamecrafters than businessmen... Stefano, here present, won't let me get wrong about it.


There is an almost famous simulator considerably shunted by racing community (including some pseudo-famous Anglo-Saxon youtubers AND a large group of this forum's users) made by a small studio in Maringa-PR that have a fair collection of F1 cars THAT DO SOME SLIDING but the sofa drivers swear that is unrealistic.

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I agree. There are surely editorial choices and technical limitations in any product offered for consumers (and even professional) use in terms of simracing. I am sure, in several instances there have been "editorial" choices or technical limits that couldn't be overcome that led to results that weren't necessarily 100% aligned with real life physics or real life drivers inputs by several developers. In some cases even quite far from the law of physics.
One more reason not to fall into the tribal war of the sims and the marketing bubbles that especially a couple of them are trying to create.

Fascinating how this thread has developed into a discussion led by professional insiders with amazing expert knowledge about the merits of a different game's tire model. Sometimes you cannot beat RD.
Back on topic: has any news about the event in question surfaced apart from the two or three shots of people sitting in a circle looking at a screen?

Eckhart von Glan said:

Fascinating how this thread has developped into a discussion led by professional insiders with amazing expert knowledge about the merits of a differnet game's tire model. Sometimes you cannot beat RD.
Back on topic: has any news about the event in question surfaced apart from the two or three shots of people sitting in a circle looking at a screen?

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yeah with all this knowlage these guys have they could go and help with tyre development of all sim's by the looks....
Back on topic from what ive seen Goodwood hillclimb and thats about it

StefanoCasillo said:

So true.. a game with F1 that could do slides and saves like the ones seen last weekend would be laughed out of existence by a lot of these guys.

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It's well known that real world physics are unrealistic and bogus.

Sorry for the further off-topic, but I hope this is allowed and a useful contribution...

@MadDriver11 wrote:

"No matter how many iterations iracing made, the issues still remain today: there is no combined longitudinal and lateral grip available. As soon as you use any grip in a given direction there is none left in the other."

"Basically as soon as you use any brakes the front wheels can't turn in the car anymore unless you make them very rear biased. That alone is showing without any doubt how their tire model is far from real life behavior."

If the quoted statements were true, it would be impossible to trail brake in iRacing and any attempt to do so would have the car ploughing straight onwards. So how do you explain the attached telemetry?

That's Jake Burton, a VRS coach, driving T3 (a hairpin turn) at Tsukuba Short in the Formula Vee. The cursor is placed at the start of his turning. The telemetry shows classic LFB trail braking technique with the car both turning and braking, and braking trailed off as the turning action increases thereby keeping the front tyres within the available traction budget, i.e. within or on the friction circle/ellipse. He's using the car's default setup and there is nothing unusual about the brake balance front/rear - 67.3%/32.7%. It's an entirely reasonable brake balance setting for a race car, well within what's plausible in RL.

There are doubtless flaws remaining in iRacing's new tyre model (NTM), but such fundamentally broken force combining behaviour as you claim above isn't one of them. There are also some tyre behaviours still not modelled, after 10+ years of NTM development.

As a result, there are some exploits available in iRacing, as the top eSports drivers have quickly latched onto. The most obvious one currently is the so-called 'brake dragging' exploit, though that name is starting to look like a poor description of what's actually happening.

Yes, GPL had more and bigger exploits, as you would expect given its age (released in 1998); the biggest was the throttle-braking exploit, heavily used by the 'aliens' of the time with their unstable-but-controllable (if you knew the trick) super-fast setups. As GPL did not capture pedal telemetry in its replay file, this behaviour and the full nature of the exploit was somewhat guessed at, but there have been at least two telemetry capture add-ons developed for GPL since then which have revealed in more detail how the exploit is applied. The simulation flaws that enable the exploit remain less than fully understood - in the absence of GPL's source code, reverse engineering efforts can only get so far.

Eckhart von Glan said:

Fascinating how this thread has developped into a discussion led by professional insiders with amazing expert knowledge about the merits of a differnet game's tire model. Sometimes you cannot beat RD.

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If you think there's any level of expert knowledge needed to judge how a racing tyre should behave, you should watch more races.

News

It always annoys me when people post things about simracing like it is totally complete different from real life and our sims of today are still toys. Or that sims are a total niche nobody cares about. What's up with this "our hobby sucks" speak? We have laser scanned tracks, we can get very close to lap times and tire grip values, speeds through corners, tire loads, downforce drags and such with same inputs. What other game type even attempts that level of detail?

The most popular game on ps3 for example was a driving game that calls itself the real driving simulator. Even if it isn't a hardcore sim it shows this thing is far from being a niche. At the same time we have the top sportsmen of real racing doing simracing. We have had huge events with tons of top names taking part. And they are not just doing it as a pr stunt but out of genuine interest. Name any other digital sport that has competitors from the real sport taking part in this magnitude and how well their skills translate from real to sim?

Reading some of these post it feels like it is all mario karts here and despite being 99% accurate in some cases it is still nothing like the real deal. Is it really that bad? I think it is great. You can take any modern sim and drive it and in every sim there are cars that are pretty close to real thing. There are some bad content as well but in the end it doesn't average out. Great is still great

How many sim racers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Ghoults said:

It always annoys me when people post things about simracing like it is totally complete different from real life and our sims of today are still toys. Or that sims are a total niche nobody cares about. What's up with this "our hobby sucks" speak? We have laser scanned tracks, we can get very close to lap times and tire grip values, speeds through corners, tire loads, downforce drags and such with same inputs. What other game type even attempts that level of detail?

The most popular game on ps3 for example was a driving game that calls itself the real driving simulator. Even if it isn't a hardcore sim it shows this thing is far from being a niche. At the same time we have the top sportsmen of real racing doing simracing. We have had huge events with tons of top names taking part. And they are not just doing it as a pr stunt but out of genuine interest. Name any other digital sport that has competitors from the real sport taking part in this magnitude and how well their skills translate from real to sim?

Reading some of these post it feels like it is all mario karts here and despite being 99% accurate in some cases it is still nothing like the real deal. Is it really that bad? I think it is great. You can take any modern sim and drive it and in every sim there are cars that are pretty close to real thing. There are some bad content as well but in the end it doesn't average out. Great is still great

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But they are still toys.

They are also still niche and nobody cares about them, proven by the incredibly small number of people who play these games, or watch it's esports events.

Skills are not very translatable from real to sim, no matter how much people sugar coat it, there is no substitute for seat time. You can learn the basics in the same, but car control and feeling the limits have to be done in a real car, period.

The fact real racing drivers take part in it means nothing,because real racing is already a niche, and even so, nobody in their right minds would ever consider watching simracing over a real race. I know i wouldn't.

No, they are not close to the real thing. The real thing has infinite permutations and variables. We in the sim/game have a sketch of the real thing at best. Its a toy yes.

And yes, i know teams use simulators. None of them is used to teach car control or how to actually drive a car at the limit, but just to practice tracks and setup combinations based on the data they have, to speed up some processes.

I will say it again, you can't replace seat time.

Now back on topic, the game looks interesting, and the mod support definitely caught my hear.