Hi I realize gs5 seat doesn't have the ability to replicate traction loss but for those who tried it, I'm curious to read if the seat still gives the driver some sort of feedback when it comes to oversteer-understeer... Thanks.
Gs5 seat and oversteer
- Thread starter commandant.brioche
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No i do not, personally i find it too hard to get good reliable information regarding griplevels from tactile.
So i mainly rely on the FFB of the AccuForce, which also has a rear traction loss setting
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I've found the GS-5 traction loss effect to be very communicative, and pretty convincing. Essentially, it drops away the pressure from the side of the seat you should be pushed into, and gradually increases the pressure from the opposite side to simulate the car swinging around under you. It's hard to describe, but makes it a lot easier to tell what the car is doing and to really balance it through longer turns, or to quickly counter-steer as needed (and as a bonus, I've found that it usually kicks in sooner than I start to feel the traction loss effect in my wheel).
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Yes, that exactly what it does.
I like the dropping away from the panel that pushes you, but don't like that the other side is starting to push. It feels strange to me, especially in games like Dirt Rally 2 when using the traction loss it feels like the panels are reversed since you are sliding all the time.
It don't believe that when the back of the car loses traction in real life, you will instantly feel this by the other side of the seat pushing against you.
But.... good the option is there for those who like it.
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Mr Latte
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No i do not, personally i find it too hard to get good reliable information regarding griplevels from tactile.
So i mainly rely on the FFB of the AccuForce, which also has a rear traction loss setting
Henk, if that's the case then perhaps you should show what "tactile effects" or settings you tried to use for wheel slip?
I have found a person willing to work on experimenting with a GS5 to combine how it can be used with advanced tactile. One of the conditions I will help this guy is that he offers and shares "his own report" of it here on the forums.
We certainly can achieve very good detail and informative slip for both the front and rear of the car. However to have it feel more authentic. Something which real track-day or racing drivers are apparently wanting for their sims to produce. They don't want a little buzz sensation of something @60-80Hz that feels restricted.
A factor that is important to the feel, requires having felt sensations to represent the weight/mass of the car also slipping. To do that you need very deep/thick bass as well as more usage of the dynamic bass range for the lowest-highest telemetry values. The more variation in felt sensation you have, then the more convincing and "informative" it can be.
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Right now i'm not using any tactile effect for wheel slip. There a few reasons why :
- Wheelslip is very car/track specific and i prefer general profiles (for example 1x GT3, 1x Formula per game ect )
- With all the effects for the SFX100 + Tactile + GS-5 + Belt Tensioner it will be hard to detect wheel slip with my current set up
- I only prefer clear and "unmixed" effects in my setup. As a rule i only have couple and specific effects per device
Currently you can map almost anything to any device, you can map road bumps to the belt tensioner and the GS-5. From what i have read there are also simracers that map rear traction loss to those devices. Or, as we discussed before, assigning simulated G-s to the buttkickers.
The only way i could see good wheel slip detection to work is having 4 LFE's at each corner and dedicate them to wheel slip and maybe add 1 or 2 effects. Wheel slip should be powerful enough so it can be distinguished clearly from the motion cues from the SFX. Low and power full effects per corner would be a very good way to achieve this.
Currently on my mobile setup this is not possible.
I'm aware that there a other possibilities like for example using the 4 exciters in the GS-5 and put them in stereo mode or chassis of put the seat on a turn table, but that's not what i'm after.
I rather miss the dedicate wheel slip effect than implementing it wrong.
Still i get a lot of other cues from the simulator telling me the front / backend is stepping out : Sudden loss of the G-Force pressure of the GS-5 panels, the movement of the suspension through the SFX and of course the steering wheel.
I might not have every effect available mapped and active but the SFX + GS-5 combo really put me "in the car"
When the back really steps out, the SFX has the ability to simulate this to, but i find it difficult to tune it right.
I'm a firm believer that the effects should only be done by the devices that do the simulation the best
Roll / Pitch = SFX100
Heave / Suspension movement = SFX100
Surge : GS-5 + Belt tensioner + SFX100 (suspension dive)
Lateral G's : GS-5
Road bumps / Curbs / Road noise : Tactile
Engine RPM : Tactile
Following that same philosophy i would only be adding the additional effects if the can be implemented like this
Wheelslip : Tactile (4x LFE's at the corners to overpower the SFX)
Rear Traction loss : An actual rear traction loss module
In general with a home simulator there's no right or wrong, it only matters what feels right to you. If you don't have all the different simulation tools available i can understand clearly that you are mapping effects to devices that imho don't belong there.
Currently i'm very happy with my mobile rig and it's reaches the point were adding extract stuff might increase the immersion a little, but adds more complexity and time setting things up when i want to race.
Moving butt kickers around is also not possible any more, everything is too boxed in. Last week Saturday i spend 4 hours just to replace a broken wire of my LFE under the GS-5. A mobile rig has it's comprises and one of those is the complexity.
But it's always a compliment a fellow simracers wants an exact replica of my rig after driving in it.
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Mr Latte
Premium
Right now i'm not using any tactile effect for wheel slip. There a few reasons why :
- Wheelslip is very car/track specific and i prefer general profiles (for example 1x GT3, 1x Formula per game ect )
- With all the effects for the SFX100 + Tactile + GS-5 + Belt Tensioner it will be hard to detect wheel slip with my current set up
- I only prefer clear and "unmixed" effects in my setup. As a rule i only have couple and specific effects per device
Currently you can map almost anything to any device, you can map road bumps to the belt tensioner and the GS-5. From what i have read there are also simracers that map rear traction loss to those devices. Or, as we discussed before, assigning simulated G-s to the buttkickers.
The only way i could see good wheel slip detection to work is having 4 LFE's at each corner and dedicate them to wheel slip and maybe add 1 or 2 effects. Wheel slip should be powerful enough so it can be distinguished clearly from the motion cues from the SFX. Low and power full effects per corner would be a very good way to achieve this.
Currently on my mobile setup this is not possible.
I'm aware that there a other possibilities like for example using the 4 exciters in the GS-5 and put them in stereo mode or chassis of put the seat on a turn table, but that's not what i'm after.
I rather miss the dedicate wheel slip effect than implementing it wrong.
Still i get a lot of other cues from the simulator telling me the front / backend is stepping out : Sudden loss of the G-Force pressure of the GS-5 panels, the movement of the suspension through the SFX and of course the steering wheel.
I might not have every effect available mapped and active but the SFX + GS-5 combo really put me "in the car"
When the back really steps out, the SFX has the ability to simulate this to, but i find it difficult to tune it right.
I'm a firm believer that the effects should only be done by the devices that do the simulation the best
Roll / Pitch = SFX100
Heave / Suspension movement = SFX100
Surge : GS-5 + Belt tensioner + SFX100 (suspension dive)
Lateral G's : GS-5
Road bumps / Curbs / Road noise : Tactile
Engine RPM : Tactile
Following that same philosophy i would only be adding the additional effects if the can be implemented like this
Wheelslip : Tactile (4x LFE's at the corners to overpower the SFX)
Rear Traction loss : An actual rear traction loss module
In general with a home simulator there's no right or wrong, it only matters what feels right to you. If you don't have all the different simulation tools available i can understand clearly that you are mapping effects to devices that imho don't belong there.
Currently i'm very happy with my mobile rig and it's reaches the point were adding extract stuff might increase the immersion a little, but adds more complexity and time setting things up when i want to race.
Moving butt kickers around is also not possible any more, everything is too boxed in. Last week Saturday i spend 4 hours just to replace a broken wire of my LFE under the GS-5. A mobile rig has it's comprises and one of those is the complexity.
But it's always a compliment a fellow simracers wants an exact replica of my rig after driving in it.
Reading this, it appears you never achieved a very satisfactory response for slip sensations with tactile then? To say you could not feel "tactile-based slip" with other hardware you have is also not what I hear from others helping to develop what I have been working on.
Please do not try to put this as just what "my preferences or self experiences are" and me pushing such onto others. You are not the only person with a GS5 and belt tensioner or SFX or other motion. Yet a growing number of people that want high-end tactile immersion or indeed some already have bought into motion solutions are wanting much more from tactile than what they have experienced so far. To have it bring additional sensations that their motion systems cannot bring.
The idea has always been to get tactile to "enhance" what other hardware and its own immersion brings. Not to try and replace something with just a different or another solution. The problem is nobody has REALLY tried to combine both but we are now close to this being taken more seriously.
Lots of people make assumptions based on the tactile hardware they have or the traditional ways of using it. To then use that train of thought as to what it can only accomplish. Effects need to be built in a way they are more understood to be combined. Applying G-Loads that are active in the car, with slip with suspension.
We do not necessarily need "Corners" for advanced wheel slips. Sure yes, it's nice to feel wheel lock to a particular wheel under loads or over bumps and independent slip but having mono front and rear is more than enough "feedback" for the driver to use it as a driving aid and to pull the user into better sensing the cars handling, operated by the application of their input controls. I have several motion users, telling me the feedback we are gaining from the tactile is more "useful" than the motion but then again with tactile we have more control over the felt sensations it generates. But it proves the direction things are going is on the right path.
What is more required is having the hardware and installation of the tactile that enables the quality of effects to be much more authentic. To offer more range in felt sensation and to do that requires increased understanding of effects, their operations, and developing more advanced effects based on that. This is only done with lots of research, continued tests, as well as discovering new ways to bring better effect sensations.
Ongoing Development
Wheelslip is one of the most sought-after effects I get asked to try to develop more.
We are well able to determine how different cars of sims may output this and how to go about making profiles to suit a particular sim, for specific cars or offer varied pre-made sets to suit the users preference.
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Hi Rodney,
No i never have achieved a satisfactory response for slip sensations with tactile. Not in the way it stands out and it can be felt clearly without getting lost in all other effects when they are enabled. The transducers and where i have moutend them, together with the compactness of my rig combined might be a big factor in this.
If you read my post correctly, there's no way you read that statement from me or even read it between the lines.
Never said i was, but there are only a few that have all combined into one rig. There are even fewer that have all combined on a mobile rig. There are none that have an entire rig that can be made so compact that everything fits into a 100x75cm package for transporting it.
This extremely compact rig includes everything, not only pedals and steering wheel, but also all 5 servo controllers, a GS-5 control box, an AccuForce control box and for tactile 1 LFE, 1 BK advance, 3 Mini LFE's and 4 exciters.
So it's almost impossible to move transducers or add isolators ect ect to improve the tactile on the hardware side.
I have always taken you seriously and i'm a big lover of tactile. The average SFX100 user however could easily do without.
If i had the space to build a proper fixed rig, i would definitely give it a very decent try. With my mobile rig it's a hard pass. The slightest adjustment takes days of work.
I would certainly be interested if you can make this work with my current hardware and would love to be proven wrong
No i never have achieved a satisfactory response for slip sensations with tactile. Not in the way it stands out and it can be felt clearly without getting lost in all other effects when they are enabled. The transducers and where i have moutend them, together with the compactness of my rig combined might be a big factor in this.
If you read my post correctly, there's no way you read that statement from me or even read it between the lines.
Never said i was, but there are only a few that have all combined into one rig. There are even fewer that have all combined on a mobile rig. There are none that have an entire rig that can be made so compact that everything fits into a 100x75cm package for transporting it.
This extremely compact rig includes everything, not only pedals and steering wheel, but also all 5 servo controllers, a GS-5 control box, an AccuForce control box and for tactile 1 LFE, 1 BK advance, 3 Mini LFE's and 4 exciters.
So it's almost impossible to move transducers or add isolators ect ect to improve the tactile on the hardware side.
I have always taken you seriously and i'm a big lover of tactile. The average SFX100 user however could easily do without.
If i had the space to build a proper fixed rig, i would definitely give it a very decent try. With my mobile rig it's a hard pass. The slightest adjustment takes days of work.
I would certainly be interested if you can make this work with my current hardware and would love to be proven wrong
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RCHeliguy
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Without taking sides in this debate, I can sympathize with you and have felt the pain of having a very densely packed rig and competing priorities, and I've have also been "prodded" to come up with solutions that work around my rig's constraints.
I haven't compromised on the functionality I want from my rig, and I have managed to find ways to get more out of it when I thought all my avenues were exhausted.
I never hurts to periodically re-examine things and brainstorm new ideas. You might just find a way to shoe horn something else in there You might not, but if nothing else it is a good exercise.
I haven't compromised on the functionality I want from my rig, and I have managed to find ways to get more out of it when I thought all my avenues were exhausted.
I never hurts to periodically re-examine things and brainstorm new ideas. You might just find a way to shoe horn something else in there
You might not, but if nothing else it is a good exercise.
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Based on my experience and analyses, SimHub's slip effect wants a bunch of tweaking to be useful.
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Mr Latte
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Henk, I didn't claim you said certain things, nor did I criticise your rig, you seem to be getting defensive. I was highlighting that I didn't want you taking what I was saying to be just based from the perspective of my own experiences. So I was expressing others with similar motion hardware to you have done successful tests.
Any issues you may be limited to in not achieving good wheel slip sensations working in tactile with your motion does not mean it is not possible to have such work with motion. That's what I wanted to clarify.
Your rig is very motion-based for your immersion, clearly, that's what you prefer but I'm not sure how well motion can offer sensations for varying amounts of tyre/slip or lock and it feels authentic. Motion is not enjoyed by all but looking at the majority of tactile users how/what they use then clearly many rigs are not getting even close to the potential with tactile that we are seeking to get out of it.
Any issues you may be limited to in not achieving good wheel slip sensations working in tactile with your motion does not mean it is not possible to have such work with motion. That's what I wanted to clarify.
Your rig is very motion-based for your immersion, clearly, that's what you prefer but I'm not sure how well motion can offer sensations for varying amounts of tyre/slip or lock and it feels authentic. Motion is not enjoyed by all but looking at the majority of tactile users how/what they use then clearly many rigs are not getting even close to the potential with tactile that we are seeking to get out of it.
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Mr Latte
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Here is an example of seeking to create much improved effects.
This highlights rear wheels slipping, the "Pink" has a lot more frequencies being generated for the varying values of slip, offering much more detail, depth and range in felt sensation. As the car begins to slip more, then particular layers become active with a lower depth of bass and even a wobble sensation when near max slip values.
The "Purple" is representative of a basic or typical effect. It has very little frequency bandwidth generated, being much more static in what it outputs in felt sensation.
This combined with motion has excellent potential...
Download image to compare the output of one option to the other.
This highlights rear wheels slipping, the "Pink" has a lot more frequencies being generated for the varying values of slip, offering much more detail, depth and range in felt sensation. As the car begins to slip more, then particular layers become active with a lower depth of bass and even a wobble sensation when near max slip values.
The "Purple" is representative of a basic or typical effect. It has very little frequency bandwidth generated, being much more static in what it outputs in felt sensation.
This combined with motion has excellent potential...
Download image to compare the output of one option to the other.
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I know, i have experienced the same thing multiple times., came up with solutions i did not even dream to think of months before. In the last couple of years in managed to put the SFX100 servos under the pedal tray, the GS-5 control box under the seat and the AF control box under the rig.Without taking sides in this debate, I can sympathize with you and have felt the pain of having a very densely packed rig and competing priorities, and I've have also been "prodded" to come up with solutions that work around my rig's constraints.
I haven't compromised on the functionality I want from my rig, and I have managed to find ways to get more out of it when I thought all my avenues were exhausted.
I never hurts to periodically re-examine things and brainstorm new ideas. You might just find a way to shoe horn something else in there
Adding in all those controllers has made my rig so packed that if i drop a bolt at certain places, i just have to hope it falls out during driving, since i will never be able to reach it.
Every upgrade is, like on your rig, an intensive and well thought out process which sometimes takes multiple tries to get it right.
Back on the topic about GS-5 doing RTL: it can and i suspect it will probably feel a lot better if the GS-5 on a stationary rig.
@Mr Latte, Rodney all good mate
I love you enthusiasm for tactile and if we only lived much much closer together i think would love to have you over for a weekend. Like you already mentioned, many tactile installations do not reach their full potential.
I have always felt this way about my tactile and even though it has much improved over the years, i still believe it's possible to get more out of it.
Isolation is probably one of the most important factors, which i already knew, but learned again when i isolated my pedal tray and got "advance performance" from 2 mini LFE's ( due to the right isolation and mounting direction)
So YES, still learning after all these years
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