Is VR dead?

[Bjarne Hansen]

Little on the high side the price but otherwise the specs are a good upgrade.

 

[mechsicko]

Definitely gotta wait and see when it comes to HTC.. they've mastered the art of snatching failure from the jaws of success at this point

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Interesting that their enterprise standalone Focus 3 has inside out tracking, hopefully it works better than in Cosmos, but they refused to have this option in PC headset, could have made Reverb killer at a competitive price (no stations associated cost overhead).

 

[onearmedbandit46]

I could be tempted with this, I already have the 2.0 light houses and I never really use my wands.

 

[TedBrosby-]

Interesting that their enterprise standalone Focus 3 has inside out tracking, hopefully it works better than in Cosmos, but they refused to have this option in PC headset, could have made Reverb killer at a competitive price (no stations associated cost overhead).

The fact that it's business only might mean they don't have confidence in its ability for consumer purposes. Reverb G2 on the other hand is used for both.

I'm skeptical. The Vive Pro 2 has better resolution than the Index, but will it actually be a better headset? There's a lot of old technology in that Vive Pro 2. The audio/head strap, the fit, the way the headset balances on your head, the speakers, etc. It just looks old.

Personally, I would keep my Index, even with its lower resolution, just because the audio and comfort are way better than any other headset I've tried. It still seems like the Reverb G2 and Index are the kings.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Extremely cautious approach with reusing pretty much everything just slapping higher res LCD panels instead of OLED, well, they also claim better lenses, but so did HP with G2.
Reheated week old soup, not a single innovation, which is quite disappointing.
Focus 3, if it has tethering ability, could be a more interesting option, same resolution and lenses, just 90hz instead of 120, but the price for what essentially is Quest 2, holly molly.

 

[onearmedbandit46]

Granted there isn't much new (and I would want to try LCD before I buy) but as my biggest 'want' from VR is higher res then it's a step in the right direction for me. I'm not totally convinced yet, higher res would demand a stronger PC and as my current system is more than adequate for my Vive Pro I may still hang back and see what the next 12-18mths brings. Not so much as in available hardware at the time but what may be just around the corner.

 

[Novopaine]

I like that HTC is not marketing this headset as a 10K headset which they could based on the current conventions. I do think that with that much resolution there is room to widen the FOV a bit more than they did, but it should definitely be sharp.

The K measurement is a confusing one that's been twisted by marketing and the general public that don't really understand the reference. K only refers to the Horizontal resolution, but most people casually relate it to the vertical resolution because the horizontal resolution can have wide variations (like ultra wide or super ultra wide screens).

Pimax calls their 8k version with two 4k displays as 8k, and is mathematically correct as they are adding only the horizontal resolutions together. Technically it's misleading. The new HTC headset is being referred to as 5k because they are also adding the horizontal resolutions 2448 + 2448 (4896). It's mathematically correct, but still misleading.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Vive Pro 2 = 2448×2448 = 6Mp per eye
Reverb G2 = 2,160 × 2,160 = 4.7MP per-eye

So the Vive Pro 2 has 27.6% more resolution than the G2.

Still the conventions are definitely weird.

I think that they should go by pixel density or ppi as well as field of view both horizontal and vertical.

It only makes sense that the Pimax 8KX be rated by ppi and then the field of view that you are using. Many people won't run the full 180 degrees because it takes too much processing.

The G2 has a higher ppi and you cannot change the FOV that you can see, however the Pimax is cropping away resolution when not running in the widest mode.

The G2 is supposed to be about 114 degrees. Yes I know these figures vary by the face gaskets you are using.

HTC is claiming 120 degrees for the Pro 2, however given what they claimed vs. actual for the Vive Pro, it may be close to the HP G2 actual.

 

[HoiHman]

I also had a lot of doubts initially, but after almost buying an 8KX..... i'm glad i cancelled it.

I was also very enthusiastic about the HP Reverb G1, which i happily RMA-ed
Then there was the HP Reverb G2 (with Valve tech) which i sold within 3 days after trying it

The good old Valve Index keeps coming out ahead for me. Overal comfort, clarity and easy of use. It that old worn coat, that just fits perfectly

But i decided to give HTC a try. Of course i would not even consider it, if there was any news on an Index 2. But generally everybody is expecting it might take a couple of year for the Index 2 successor to arrive.

I bought HTC Vive Pro 2 through Pay Pal and i'm fully gonna use the 14 days of trial to decide if i'm gonna keep it or not.

VR headsets is something you have to try yourself and not something you can really rely on other people experiences....

 

[RCHeliguy]

@HoiHman I'll be very interested to see what you think of them. I think I would rather pay the little extra money and wait to get user feedback before messing with it.

I still have doubts that I could get a headset that resolution to run well in DCS without a 40 series GPU. That said with some settings set low I can get 150% SS in DCS at 90 fps with my Index. So I could possibly run that at 75% and still have it look better.

 

[blekenbleu]

Karl is unimpressed

 

[HoiHman]

@RCHeliguy, i rather return the HMD ( with PayPal back up ) or sell it with a small loss knowing that i have actually tried it myself, then having to rely on reviews from others.

That's what i learned from trying VR headsets in the past.

Performance in VR will always be an issue, even with my RTX 3090, but who knows, i might actually find a good sweetspot with acceptable performance and good visuals.

I have to agree with Karl in the video above that the Vive Pro 2 looks outdated, but i stopped watching his video after i kept on hearing him complaining about the wands.

-I don't care how i looks from the outside, just how the picture quality is on the inside
-I don't care about the controllers, i will use the HMD with the Index Controllers
-I don't care about the audio quality, i will use my Sony noise cancelling headphones instead
-I don't even care about the quality of the mic, as long as crewchief can hear me
-I don't even care about the price, as long as the improvement is worth it

What i do like about the Vive Pro 2 is

- Increased resolution and acceptable FOV
- Steam VR tracking ( is the best with motion )
- NO WMR ( i hate Windows Mixed Reality )

 

[TedBrosby-]

I think there's only one real solution to the "wired tether" problem:
A GPU inside the headset.

Any sort of "wireless" technology will face the same hurdles that wireless HDMI/TV's faced 5 or 8 years ago. The data transfer rate is too high and there's not a wireless connection out there that's 100% consistent that won't have delays or random stutters.

Unfortunately that means its own hurdles:
GPU's are expensive and one that would drive 2200x2200 pixels per eye would need to be very powerful.
A GPU that powerful would need power. So you'd still have to charge the headset and it would be heavy not only from the GPU/cooling but also the battery it would need.

Data transfer of PCI-Express data also needs to be considered. Would it even be faster than rendered display data? I think HDMI 2.1 transfers up to 48GB/s. PCI-Express 3.0 x16 is around 16 Gb/s and 4.0 is around 32 Gb/s. So yeah display data is definitely "larger", but wireless transfer of 16+ GB/s is not an easy solution, not without lag or stutters. Personally, I wouldn't mind an occasional black-out or stutter if I'm playing a slow paced VR game, but for sim racing? One stutter/freeze and you could be in the wall.

Personally I feel that his complaints kind of apply to all headsets and not the Vive Pro 2 specifically. Controllers are bad? Well, every controller except the Index knuckles are bad. Wires are bad? Well only the Quest/Quest 2 is wireless and it's only wireless for standalone VR titles on the Oculus store. I agree with him that the price stinks. Who cares if it's higher resolution than the Vive Pro? It's also more expensive. Better but more expensive isn't an evolution, it's just a higher end SKU on the same old technology.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Why only GPU, don't you need CPU too? So essentially a standalone headset.

 

[TedBrosby-]

Why only GPU, don't you need CPU too? So essentially a standalone headset.

Then you'd need memory, and storage, essentially a desktop inside a helmet. Not really ideal.
Ideally you'd only have the components necessary for rendering the image/sound data, which is just the GPU. CPU just processes the information from memory and sends the rendering data to the GPU over PCI-Express.
Anything further than that and I'd question if it's actually faster than the desktop counterparts. No way some integrated CPU in a headset will be faster than a 5900X/5950X.

Plus the GPU is the most necessary part, only having that, it's possible to keep the power draw to around 250W, maybe less.

Mark my words: wireless VR is going to be a huge technical challenge. The two biggest hurdles are power draw and data transfer rates. Rendering at the computer and transferring the rendered data wireless? Stuttering and lag. Transferring raw data and rendering at the headset? Too much power draw, plus you have to send tracking back to the PC.

 

[onearmedbandit46]

The price of the Vive Pro 2 HMD here in my country is the same as the Vive Pro HMD by itself, $1449. My Vive Pro McLaren kit was NZ$2500.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Then you'd need memory, and storage, essentially a desktop inside a helmet.

External GPU is the subject to the same bandwidth limitations, they use Thunderbolt 3 which can support only 4 lanes vs 16 with PCIe, and then you can't use them all for just sending CPU draw calls, somehow HMD needs to communicate back current head/view position, plus GPU needs to access RAM for swapping cached data, etc.

Ideal target state for VR is wire free, so guess 5G or some other wireless protocol with compression is the right direction.

 

[RobertR1]

Measured fov on pro 2 will be interesting. I don’t see the res being a game changer over what the G2 offers.

 

[blekenbleu]

Performance in VR will always be an issue, even with my RTX 3090, but who knows,

Indeed, without WMR overhead, Vive Pro 2 performance may be better.