Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

[RCHeliguy]

The problem is, you didn't know, as I didn't know

Agreed.

I'm also not saying that every purchase made has to be the most expensive premium product available.

My earlier 4 point Tanaka harness had functional releases, still not nearly as easy to use as the Crow's but was only 2" wide and I definitely prefer 3" wide. I could have managed with a solution like that in a 3" width.

I will say that there is a difference between managing with a workable solution and having something be effortless and enjoyable to touch, feel and use. Never a requirement, just something that you smile over.

I remember years ago changing out all my battery connectors to RCPROPLUS Pro-D6 Supra X connectors for my RC helis. They had a perfect amount of preload before they snapped into place, never got loose and never required grunting to press together or pull apart. They were expensive and my existing PR6 connectors worked well enough, but the Pro Pluses were enjoyable to use. It was a no-futz operation and the tactile snap was satisfying. It just made the experience more enjoyable. There were people who thought they were stupid because of the cost and called those of us who switched over to them stupid. I would never go back.

My new harness may fall into that "luxury item" category, and you are right that if what I had purchased before was usable "enough", I probably wouldn't have tried something else, but I'm glad I did.

 

[RCHeliguy]

This was an accident, but it appears it can at times result in a small performance increase as shown in the article below. I doubt I'll notice it, but I'll take it.

Are More RAM Modules Better for Gaming? 4 x 4GB vs. 2 x 8GB

Today we're taking a look at the performance impact having four DDR4 memory modules can have on performance in a dual-channel system, opposed to just two modules....

www.techspot.com

The 2 16Gb DDR4x4000 memory sticks are only $10 more than 2 8Gb DDR4-4000 sticks, but I accidentally ordered the 8Gb sticks. So I ordered another 2 8Gb sticks for a total of 4. So I paid twice as much for a very incremental increase in performance.

Working inside this case is extremely easy. I had plenty of room to put the new sticks in without touching the old sticks. The only downside I've seen to this case is that there is a crown to the top of the case. I guess that's a feature if you accidentally pour a drink over the case, but it means that I can no longer put my Valve Index headset holder on it. I may build something that fits over the top. If I do, I'll mount the headset holder to it and add hand controller holders and something to hold the charger for them. This may end up being a combination of wood and 3D printed parts.

 

[GagarynGaribaldi]

I've also noticed this with different cards, but one cheapo basic 7.1 USB card I bought (for testing) was noticeably lower in output level as well. As was, certain onboard audio compared to the X3 cards.

Some soundcards may output 80dB some will be over 120dB and it makes sense to partner up the more capable tactile hardware with a more accomplished soundcard.

Often manufacturer specs are highlighting their product in best-case scenarios. To some extent, misleading or let's say, not an ideal reflection of the real/world usage, especially in how we are using the soundcards with Simhub.

I think I have 5 or 6 different USB soundcards laying around that I tried over the last 2 years and yes the X3 and new X4 are certainly good performers when it comes to what we want from these. It became my favorite but I went for a high-end internal "Audiophile" card for game audio, (EVGA NU Audio Pro 7.1) which will go in a new build next year.

I also noticed the PDU I use removed some electrical/interference that was showing on my (Behringer X32 Rack) RTA feature. This may partly be down to buying decent cables too?

Soundcards don't output dB. They output voltage and current. Some may output high voltage at lower current, some may output lower voltage at higher current.

dB is a function of the sensitivity of the output device, be it headphones, speakers or transducers. If you have a high impedance output device you will need a sound card that favours voltage over current, the opposite for a low impedance device.

After all your testing and reports on this subject I would have expected you to grasp these basics.

 

[anton_Chez]

Pitspeed, is that you....?

 

[Mr Latte]

Soundcards don't output dB. They output voltage and current. Some may output high voltage at lower current, some may output lower voltage at higher current.

dB is a function of the sensitivity of the output device, be it headphones, speakers or transducers. If you have a high impedance output device you will need a sound card that favours voltage over current, the opposite for a low impedance device.

After all your testing and reports on this subject I would have expected you to grasp these basics.

Hi, can you tell me what the best way to compare the output of a soundcard into a DAW would be? To just determine the output of that card under different user scenarios or compare to other cards?

All my metering/spectrum analysis plugins for monitoring audio, use dB.
I can also use LUFS (loudness) metering (for content industry standards) within Cubase 11 Pro

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/decibels/

dB SPL is not the same as dB FS but correct me please as both appear to use decibels

I could see differences in soundcard settings or how Simhub "tests" compare with different used volumes. Part of one thing I wanted to share was more understanding in the differences with a soundcard used in Simhub from 10% - 100% in steps of 10% how the output in (dB) altered using the various plugins I have available.

Simple to do with freezing the response but even the "test" signal is not the same output each time it is clicked. So an average recorded response over 3 presses could be used.

WIll listen to your recommendations.


EDIT:
Creative X3 USB card Vs Budget 7.1 USB card
I also confirmed settings for the inputs on my hardware used identical pre-amp levels.


Here is an image from two tests.
One card outputs a response that appears better than the other.
Not only in the "Loudness" metering but also has more/increased amplitude for the frequencies with the exact same "test" being conducted.



While this is only a quick example, this to me reflects what Mark refers to and I also commented on that "soundcards" can make a difference.
Both Soundcards set to 100%

 

[GagarynGaribaldi]

Hi, can you tell me what the best way to compare the output of a soundcard into a DAW would be? To just determine the output of that card under different user scenarios or compare to other cards?

All my metering/spectrum analysis plugins for monitoring audio, use dB.
I can also use LUFS (loudness)metering (for industry standards) within Cubase 11 Pro

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/decibels/

dB SPL is not the same as dB FS but correct me please as both appear to use decibels

I could see differences in soundcard settings or how Simhub "tests" compare with different used volumes. Part of one thing I wanted to share was more understanding in the differences with a soundcard used in Simhub from 10% - 100% in steps of 10% how the output in (dB) altered using the various plugins I have available.

Simple to do with freezing the response but even the "test" signal is not the same output each time it is clicked. So an average recorded response over 3 presses could be used.

WIll listen to your recommendations.


EDIT:
Creative X3 USB card Vs Budget 7.1 USB
I also confirmed settings for the inputs on my hardware used identical pre-amp levels.



Here is an image from two tests.
One card outputs a response that appears better than the other.
Not only in the "Loudness" metering but also has in the frequencies with the exact same "test" being conducted.

While this is only a quick example, this to me reflects what Mark refers to and I also commented on that "soundcards" can make a difference.
Both Soundcards set to 100%

You are confusing two things here. Earlier you mentioned testing two sound cards which you described as having output peaks of 80 and 120 dB. These are positive measurements so you could only be referring to dB SPL which is a measure of sound level - not signal.

dBFS is always a negative measurement. 0 dBFS is max peak level and all measurements are expressed as negative values - for example -6 dBFS is half peak level.

LUFS are a different thing again - they measure perceived loudness; your screen shots show Integrated, Short Term and Momentary which all measure the perceived loudness of different time samples of the file being measured. In simple terms, they indicate how much the dynamics of what is being measured are compressed or otherwise.

I know this is all confusing - this is why being a sound engineer is a thing.

Edit - to make this more helpful - I see you asked specifically about why they both measure is decibels. A decibel has no value - it is simply a ratio between other values, and to complicate things further it is logarithmic and not linear - you'll already know that I'm sure.

Db SPL measures sound pressure. 0 dB being only just audible, 6 dB being twice as loud and so on.

dBFS measures digital signal level - 0 dB being max possible level and everything else being measured logarithmically below that.

You cannot measure an analogue signal in dBFS - only the digital signal.

 

[Mr Latte]

You are confusing two things here. Earlier you mentioned testing two sound cards which you described as having output peaks of 80 and 120 dB. These are positive measurements so you could only be referring to dB SPL which is a measure of sound - not signal.

dBFS is always a negative measurement. 0 dBFS is max peak level and all measurements are expressed as negative values - for example -6 dBFS is half peak level.

LUFS are a different thing again - they measure perceived loudness; your screen shots show Integrated, Short Term and Momentary which all measure the perceived loudness of different time samples of the file being measured. In simple terms, they indicate how much the dynamics of what is being measured are compressed or otherwise.

I know this is all confusing - this is why being a sound engineer is a thing.

The 80 / 120dB was not from a measurement, that was more in examples found in some soundcards reported SNR which is often used as a selling point but once again applying the dB terms as part of marketing.

The example shown clearly highlights two sources used in the same manner for comparison.
Once again, as asked you are welcome to direct us on how to do this in a better way to compare two source inputs and the frequencies being output from each.

For the record, I have never claimed to be a qualified audio expert or sound engineer.

 

[Mr Latte]

Edit - to make this more helpful - I see you asked specifically about why they both measure is decibels. A decibel has no value - it is simply a ratio between other values, and to complicate things further it is logarithmic and not linear - you'll already know that I'm sure.

Db SPL measures sound pressure. 0 dB being only just audible, 6 dB being twice as loud and so on.

dBFS measures digital signal level - 0 dB being max possible level and everything else being measured logarithmically below that.

You cannot measure an analogue signal in dBFS - only the digital signal.

The link I already had shared with you, indeed already mentioned points you said.

The audio I believe is being converted to digital via an S32 stagebox (if that matters)?

What would be easier, is for you to just highlight a better process of what should be done/different to compare two soundcard input devices and the frequencies output on them with Simhub in mind?

All this to confirm what we know already that, some soundcards can make an improved difference....

 

[GagarynGaribaldi]

The link I already had shared with you, indeed already mentioned points you said.

The audio I believe is being converted to digital via an S32 stagebox (if that matters)?
What would be easier, is for you to just highlight the best process of what should be done/different to compare two soundcard input devices and the frequencies output on them with Simhub in mind.

I think I mentioned earlier that if the speaker (or transducer) output on one sound card is lower than another sound card then it is because of differences in voltage and current between the two sound cards favouring the impedance of that particular speaker . To compare them you measure voltage and current. Nominal impedance in speakers is generally rounded to the nearest common measurement - not all are exactly 2, 4, 8, 16 or 32ohms. Converting an analogue signal to digital and analysing that in a DAW is futile in this regard.

 

[Mr Latte]

I think I mentioned earlier that if the speaker (or transducer) output on one sound card is lower than another sound card then it is because of differences in voltage and current between the two sound cards favouring the impedance of that particular speaker . To compare them you measure voltage and current. Nominal impedance in speakers is generally rounded to the nearest common measurement - not all are exactly 2, 4, 8, 16 or 32ohms. Converting an analogue signal to digital and analysing that in a DAW is futile in this regard.

Ah but more confusion as many in the home/studio music industry connect various musical hardware/sources and use visualization/metering tools for those to balance or produce music they create. I do not see them looking to voltages/current etc, to tune that hardware on mic or line-level inputs. Essentially what I am doing here is no different.

So I would not rule out what I showed here as having no benefits or interest and its also very useful for effects creation (for me at least).

I'd like to see what fully done tests show in results from a lot of various cards and had considered contacting Amir from Audio & Science review to conduct some comparisons of several cards with bass frequencies in mind. However even on websites like that, which go to very in-depth analysis of soundcards/audio hardware what again as has already been mentioned is that soundcards can make a difference, so much so that its noticeably felt and bottom-line, people might not care so much for what the "measured data" is, but simply what are the best cards to use for low-frequency bass output for transducers.

As yet, Ive not seen anyone seek to do such tests/comparisons with Simhub as the source material.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I do have "a bit" of a background in digital audio ( BSEE, worked in pro digital audio for a while at Audio Animation)

I believe the issue may be two fold.
1. Loss of signal due to bleed through or cross talk to other channels.
2. Lack of low frequency response.

S/N ratio is pretty meaningless in these discussions unless it is severely bad. For transducers 60dB of S/N should be plenty. S/N is more a measure of quality. I would also suggest that THD and IMD values are likely mostly irrelevant unless they are really bad. As mentioned Signals are measured from 0dB being the highest value and negatives down from there.

A CD and all 16 bit music has a maximum S/N ratio of 96dB. 24bit music has a maximum of 144dB. While the peak dynamic range that you can hear is about 120-130 at about 1KHz, your ear adjusts to the relative volume of music and you cannot hear anywhere near that range at the same time. It's like your eyes adjusting to light. If the music is loud, you can not differentiate anything below a threshold. That is why audio compression is so effective. It can remove the part of the signal that you are unable to differentiate and it can operate like a floating point number with significant digits to a certain point that you can recognize.

I initially didn't think sound card quality mattered because the S/N and distortion values were not very important for transducers. However what I found were complete failures in analog channels to produce a signal and horrible Crosstalk which effectively showed some channels were all but shorted together. This is basic functionality and I consider these products to be defective out of the box.

That said, frequency response lower than 20Hz is typically only cared about in higher end audio products.

For transducers ,the top things I think you need from an audio card/box are:

Separation between channels or minimal Crosstalk.
Reasonable consistent signal strength.
Good low end frequency response.

The X4 has great separation between channels and I feel comfortable after testing it that I can have all of my 8 tactile channels coming through it without any issues. I saw ZERO signal bleed through on any of the DSP channels.

I saw similar signal peaks on my DSP's when I pressed the test button in SimHub.

• The signal out of the X4 reached the top yellow value on the signal meters on all 8 channels showing in the t.racks software. It was very consistent.
• The internal cards were less consistent and would reach the middle, top yellow value or sometimes the first red segment. This could vary for the same channel. My guess is that is because of bleed through to other channels, but it definitely shows some issues.

The bottom line is that the X3/X4 solution wins on many fronts.

1. I can use a single USB box instead of two cards, so the cost balances out.
2. The signal quality is consistent.
3. It may have better low end response.
4. It takes a source of air turbulence and heat out of the computer case.

 

[Atak_Kat]

Very very interesting. I have much to learn.
I am currently using my MB outs for the tactile, and have a separate Sound BlasterX G6 just for headphones and mic input. With my new TUF Z690 MB, I assume the crosstalk will be very bad (judging from the review mentioning this on YT), so most likely I'll have to consider another approach for the tactile output.

The XG6 does have an audio out jack on the back that is one of those 1/8th jacks, but also has optical (which I admit I don't know very much about). So I will have to check if somehow I can have that rear jack as a separate output than the headphones, and if the 'optical' option could handle something more?

Always learning.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The optical out would require a preamp to decode the signal and likely it would expect Dolby Digital, DTX, THX etc..

I would get an X3 or X4. The X4 came up in direct mode by default and all 8 channels are just there and usable once you set the device to 7.1 in Windows. It has four 1/8 stereo analog connectors that you can run to a DSP or amplifier.

My new Gigabyte MB doesn't have much for analog outputs. I'm only using it's optical out to my AV receiver for when my wife does online Yoga in the media room, or I'm watching a VRS video about driving a specific track.

I wish I did this earlier. But you live and learn.

 

[Mr Latte]

With what was showed, it clearly highlights differences in the output from two cards.
Both using the same source, with the source settings the same, and each card at 100%.

Personally, I am curious to look more into this but it does seem to highlight one of the reasons we see various people with different soundcard settings. As cards vary in the quality of their outputs. Also the DSP factor, those that then apply additional DSP are boosting the amplitude of specific frequencies even more, while many other people with budget soundcards or onboard audio are most often not.

While we cannot see what the altered output is from using tools like the t.tracks to visually determine the frequencies/amplitude and what this is before/after DSP is applied.

However, this is possible with my own setup and everything being routed into the DAW. So potentially we can then use these such tools I have to apply settings used with owners of t.tracks DSP to then see how/what ways the settings actually alter the output.

As we are using industry-standard crossover/filters and measurable PEQ for specific frequencies, I think it would be interesting to persue this more to help define optimal settings to suit the different transducers/exciters.

 

[cnhoff]

One could also use probes on the actual vibrating surfaces like the assembly plates or seat shell similar to what blekenbleu and me have excersized, in order to include the nonlinear properties of the shakers and amp and the physical effects of your rig in your measurements. I am sure those parts of the setup contribute an essential part to the distortion of the clean signal coming out of Simhub and the mostly linear sound card.

That might be impractical or unnecessary for the actual effect design and is harder to realize, than to just tap the sound card‘s output, but might contribute to the final result perceived when taken into account at certain points of development.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Really liking the clarity of my early Christmas present

Also liking my 2.5 and 1.5 diopter "cheater lenses" that make the welds nice and crystal clear to my eyes. I need reading glasses now, so this is actually an important thing for me. I may stick with the 1.5 initially it bring things into focus, but doesn't add much size. The 2.5 makes the weld nice and big, but seems just a bit much at the moment.

This shield also doesn't have that green tint many welding helmets have. What I'm welding looks more metalic bluish instead.

The way this clamps to my head is extremely comfortable.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Just pushed up a quick video showing all the upgrades I've made to my rig and gaming computer for the 2nd half of 2021.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'll have something more thorough including tactile at some point, but I don't think I'm there yet.

 

[Deleted member 1449502]

Just pushed up a quick video showing all the upgrades I've made to my rig and gaming computer for the 2nd half of 2021.

So clean dude! Love it

 

[RCHeliguy]

So clean dude! Love it

Thanks!

Over time as it has become denser with features it has become heavier. The newer rated for 800 lbs retractable casters I added this year with larger wheels definitely help make it roll better on carpet. It has also become more modular and easier to work on. The only thing that currently doesn't have quick disconnects are the TST-429 and Dayton exciters on the seat.

I'm still chipping away on the history of the rig video showing each upgrade with a timeline and of course I keep adding things that need to be added to the end.

I could still hang another TST-429 off the right side of the seat and a 2nd BK off the back, but I'm in no hurry. This is working very well as it is. I'm going to try to enjoy it as is for a while. I still have a lot to dial in. But a know a certain someone will be "encouraging" me to do that

Now that everything appears to be running tip tip, I've actually thought about potential maintenance at this point. For example having to send the NLRv3 in for repair and setting up temporary brackets at the same height as they are on the NLRv3. That should be easy enough that I can wait until the situation arises. The other issue I've heard about is burning up the exciters. I'm not sure if I should keep a couple on deck just in case. Of course I would be tempted to put them on the seat if I got them, so I'll have to think about that.

Otherwise I've heard that NVidia may release the 40 series ahead of schedule in early 2022. If the Valve Index 2 is also announced that would be the next upgrade I could get excited about. I'm thinking the i9-12900 I just installed in my gaming computer will be a good foundation for a video card like that. If the 40 series is released early, I'll feel compelled to get in line early even without the headset just to make sure I can get one.

DCS has bumped back the Apache AH-64D release again until December 15th. I'm hoping to have time to play with that over the Christmas break. I plan to take some time to setup tactile for DCS at that time.