Embracing DX12 has nothing to do with video cards and everything to do with operating systems. Few developers are willing to lose the Windows 7 diehards that are a sizeable segment of the gaming population.
Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Ti leak reveals a very powerful graphics card
- Thread starter Paul Glover
- Start date
Embracing DX12 has nothing to do with video cards and everything to do with operating systems. Few developers are willing to lose the Windows 7 diehards that are a sizeable segment of the gaming population.
Ray tracing is part of Dx12 Api. And no you do not need a RTX based GPU to use it!
As a matter of fact I remember a Ray-tracing program running under DOS on a VGA display it was a glass ball on a checker board.
Ran for ~20 hours on a 80286 but only 4 hours if you had a 80287!
AMD got Radeon-Rays that is part of OpenCL 1.2 .So that has been out for a while.
https://gpuopen.com/gaming-product/radeon-rays/
Whats new is specific consumer hardware that can do RT in real time!
That is if a $1,200 GPU should be considered consumer hardware?
As a matter of fact I remember a Ray-tracing program running under DOS on a VGA display it was a glass ball on a checker board.
Ran for ~20 hours on a 80286 but only 4 hours if you had a 80287!
AMD got Radeon-Rays that is part of OpenCL 1.2 .So that has been out for a while.
https://gpuopen.com/gaming-product/radeon-rays/
Whats new is specific consumer hardware that can do RT in real time!
That is if a $1,200 GPU should be considered consumer hardware?
And the fact that the jump from Dx9 to Dx11 was much easier than the Dx11 to Dx12.jump are/ will be.
That's an understandable point of view, but I've been sensing in your posts that you're riding on the promise of Nvidia and widespreaded usage of RT titles and DLSS, both being expected to be resource hogs in isolation (now imagine in combination) and unknown proportions as adopted technology for games at this point in time.
As someone who simply refuses to make debth on credit for PC parts, if I owned a GTX1070 and willing to upgrade a.s.a.p., I'd much rather save the money and get a semi-used GTX1080Ti. It's pretty much double the performance you gain with that upgrade (see here), and for reasonable money.
You can now get semi-used GTX1080Ti well under 600.00 Euros (and it will lower further in time), which is far, far less than half of the expected "real" price for the RTX2080Ti after launch.
That way, you'd be fairly safe while waiting on the "3080Ti" (or whatever the 7nm Nvidia series will be called then) and the antecipated 7nm GPUs from AMD (supposedly "Vega2" series), at a point when this kind of tech we're seeing hyped right now will become (or maybe not) widely adopted and, most likely, much better used by the following gen of GPUs.
But then I'm me, and not you, so...
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Interesting reading but I would like to try and understand how the 20 series will benefit us sim racers playing the current, main titles
FWIW I have a PC dedicated for sim-racing only. Any other games that interest me I play on console. Currently I enjoy AC, R3E, rF2, PC2 and Dirt Rally this will likely continue for many years to come. In terms of forthcoming titles ACC has me interested as does GTR3.
In terms of hardware I have a mildly overclocked Intel 8700k and a factory-oc'd EVGA 1080Ti. and I've put some effort in to liquid & case cooling, which works well. I almost exclusively use VR (Rift) these days, instead of my triple monitor set up and am achieving solid and stable FPS performance across all titles. I've come to terms with the reduction in fidelity because I find the immersion that VR offers incredible. Of course I'd welcome any opportunity to improve both the visuals and performance but I suppose we need to wait for the next generation of HMDs and probably CPUs to get anything meaningful.
So my question is, based on the fairly long-in-the-tooth titles that most of us enjoy, (most of which are still being supported by developers / modders), would upgrading to let's say, a 2080Ti over a 1080Ti, have any noticeable and immediate benefit, whether that be using VR or monitors? I fully appreciate that the conversation should really take in to account the full spectrum of 10 series and 20 series GPUs, especially where comparisons are to be made and establishing which of the 20 series might represent the most effective for current sim racing titles but for the purposes of direct comparison I'd like to focus on the best that both series have to offer.
Again this question only relates to current sim racing titles and not the BF5s and other titles where eye candy and impressive effects are the order of the day. ACC throws a bit
If those benefits are likely to exist and they are deemed properly worthwhile, it then comes down to individual choice as to whether upgrading to the 20 series, at whatever level, is worth the investment and that's with one eye on 7nm GPUs becoming available within, let's say, the next 24 months.
I appreciate that this is a difficult question to answer especially without any proper bench marking or real world experience available right now but it would be good to get a feeling for what the RD community think.
FWIW I have a PC dedicated for sim-racing only. Any other games that interest me I play on console. Currently I enjoy AC, R3E, rF2, PC2 and Dirt Rally this will likely continue for many years to come. In terms of forthcoming titles ACC has me interested as does GTR3.
In terms of hardware I have a mildly overclocked Intel 8700k and a factory-oc'd EVGA 1080Ti. and I've put some effort in to liquid & case cooling, which works well. I almost exclusively use VR (Rift) these days, instead of my triple monitor set up and am achieving solid and stable FPS performance across all titles. I've come to terms with the reduction in fidelity because I find the immersion that VR offers incredible. Of course I'd welcome any opportunity to improve both the visuals and performance but I suppose we need to wait for the next generation of HMDs and probably CPUs to get anything meaningful.
So my question is, based on the fairly long-in-the-tooth titles that most of us enjoy, (most of which are still being supported by developers / modders), would upgrading to let's say, a 2080Ti over a 1080Ti, have any noticeable and immediate benefit, whether that be using VR or monitors? I fully appreciate that the conversation should really take in to account the full spectrum of 10 series and 20 series GPUs, especially where comparisons are to be made and establishing which of the 20 series might represent the most effective for current sim racing titles but for the purposes of direct comparison I'd like to focus on the best that both series have to offer.
Again this question only relates to current sim racing titles and not the BF5s and other titles where eye candy and impressive effects are the order of the day. ACC throws a bit
If those benefits are likely to exist and they are deemed properly worthwhile, it then comes down to individual choice as to whether upgrading to the 20 series, at whatever level, is worth the investment and that's with one eye on 7nm GPUs becoming available within, let's say, the next 24 months.
I appreciate that this is a difficult question to answer especially without any proper bench marking or real world experience available right now but it would be good to get a feeling for what the RD community think.
The answer is pretty short actually:
- Ray Tracing probably in ACC and GTR3, maybe when Raceroom gets transferred to Unreal Engine too.
- "deep learning" supersampling. Sounds like awesome anti aliasing.
- from paper: 25% more performance for 50% more money
No idea if Ray Tracing and the Supersampling can be enabled in VR.
- Ray Tracing probably in ACC and GTR3, maybe when Raceroom gets transferred to Unreal Engine too.
- "deep learning" supersampling. Sounds like awesome anti aliasing.
- from paper: 25% more performance for 50% more money
No idea if Ray Tracing and the Supersampling can be enabled in VR.
The only benefit to VR off the bat will be the expected generational jump in horsepower. I'm running the same CPU and GPU setup as you Steve, along with the Vive. I did upgrade from a 1080 to a 1080 Ti last year and the 35% increase over the 1080 for VR was noticeable, at least allowing super-sampling for a sharper picture.
If the 2080 doesn't beat the 1080 Ti by a decent margin, then only the 2080 Ti will give you a worthwhile boast that will let you turn on a few more visual effects to pretty up the games. Buying the card for the first version of ray tracing as an early adopter in my opinion is not a good investment when there remains a question mark over performance degradation and the unknown of developer support outside the handful of announced titles. The deep learning super-sampling is a more compelling feature that would be good for VR. But again developers need to add this to games.
Personally I'm on the side of skipping the 20 series, it's not enough over my current card. If say the 2080 Ti is 25% faster than my 1080 Ti, I'm still capped at 90 fps in VR. And I'm okay with the reduced visual compromises. Selling my 1080 Ti for £500 (maybe less if the market becomes flooded with these older cards) and then forking out another £500 to enable nicer shadows and reflections in VR isn't great value. As I said I'm not including the specific RTX features in this calculation as there's no guarantee wide adoption by developers, or indeed enough new titles with this support in the near future; by the time the superior second gen RTX cards emerge it may actually be worth having once game developers have caught up with understanding how to use all of this.
That said we haven't seen any benchmarks so I'm not completely closed to the idea later down the line, but my current plan is skip 20 and upgrade the following generation whereby the performance jump is going be in the 50% plus region over my current setup.
If the 2080 doesn't beat the 1080 Ti by a decent margin, then only the 2080 Ti will give you a worthwhile boast that will let you turn on a few more visual effects to pretty up the games. Buying the card for the first version of ray tracing as an early adopter in my opinion is not a good investment when there remains a question mark over performance degradation and the unknown of developer support outside the handful of announced titles. The deep learning super-sampling is a more compelling feature that would be good for VR. But again developers need to add this to games.
Personally I'm on the side of skipping the 20 series, it's not enough over my current card. If say the 2080 Ti is 25% faster than my 1080 Ti, I'm still capped at 90 fps in VR. And I'm okay with the reduced visual compromises. Selling my 1080 Ti for £500 (maybe less if the market becomes flooded with these older cards) and then forking out another £500 to enable nicer shadows and reflections in VR isn't great value. As I said I'm not including the specific RTX features in this calculation as there's no guarantee wide adoption by developers, or indeed enough new titles with this support in the near future; by the time the superior second gen RTX cards emerge it may actually be worth having once game developers have caught up with understanding how to use all of this.
That said we haven't seen any benchmarks so I'm not completely closed to the idea later down the line, but my current plan is skip 20 and upgrade the following generation whereby the performance jump is going be in the 50% plus region over my current setup.
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The thing that I don't get as sim racers as a selling point of the RTX cards is who looks at the reflections when your 40 laps into a 50 lap race with your cooked tyres, battling the A.I or online. Visuals are the last thing on your mind. Who is behind your car and the next apex is all that matters. Playing driving games your focal point is tiny, you don't have time for gawping at the lovely vistas 99% of the time.
Mr Latte
Premium
Heres why I disagree, how many users like to turn down graphical settings and not experience a title at its visual best and them still get very good frame-rates? Are you telling me that if someone varies graphics from low-med-high settings they will not notice anything as well how you put it, their focal point is tiny?
It depends how well they implement RTX and the level of performance they can get out of it.
Fully working mirrors, proper windscreen reflections, atmospheric shadows and improved lighting, improved detail are all specifics towards a higher sense of realism if achieved. Realism in a car simulation should be an important aspect, yes?
If anything some may see what it brings, while in some cases subtle, depending on the user such may be a bigger or more fascinating upgrade than a resolution increase like moving from 1080p - 4K. If indeed it improves the immersion but also just brings visually more enjoyment to the graphics then some will no doubt want to experience the title in a way the card they just bought enables them to.
Its actually interesting to see this in a racing title but also a racing title that will be using gameplay aspects in the weather, a drying track or growing puddle formations, 24hr day-night cycle. I don't think the point for the devs in implementing successfully would then mean most of it is missed within the cockpit or actually whilst racing.
We could possibly have replays that look beyond anything before, we could also have a photo-mode that is a very nice way to appreciate the RT based graphics. These, if such are indeed options, may not appeal to everyone but I can say from a personal perspective.
Visually at least ACC should raise the bar for racing titles and if buying a 20 series card, in particular, the 2080 or 2080Ti then as users the game could be enjoyed/experienced in varied ways.
I would love to be able to play ACC with Samsungs upcoming 1440p 32:9 monitor in HDR and with RTX. Or have the option to enjoy it in VR with very good framerates or indeed at a native resolution of the monitor used with high frame-rates and maximum details.
The problem is, sim racing is now very expensive if wanting to experience it at the sharp end, £1000 direct drive wheels for example. Some people with several wheel/rims that are by no means cheap, costing several hundreds each. Monitors in triple screens or highend ultrawide or 4K high refresh based displays. So really the perspective of how crazy a £1000 graphics card is may be up for debate in the crazy world we find ourselves.
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I feel the sim crowd wants top graphics and are generally willing to pay an extra 300$ to get it, or at least the vocal minority. Personally, I'd be satisfied with nothing less than rock-solid 60FPS at 1080p
Sim racing at the high end is expensive and sure a £1000 GPU seems like a drop in the ocean when you factor this value in the equation. I'd argue your investment in sim gear and monitors are going to serve you a lot longer than a GPU which is superseded every two years. Therefore I look them at a different value proposition.
I have a £6k plus sim setup excluding my PC. Right now I have my eye on a £1k rim, so the same cost as the 2080 Ti. The wheel rim will outlast the useful life of a 2080 Ti by decades.
Mr Latte
Premium
I would prefer to put £1000 into a Fanatec DD wheel than a GPU at this time, as I need or would benefit from it more perhaps to improve the immersion for a rig. Then again I can also very much enjoy a new monitor for various purposes, or a new GPU for all games being played, so each option brings its own benefits.
I no longer get myself into high levels of debt or use credit cards, so to me deciding what to actually save towards can take time to evaluate better what to go for and not just rush into another monthly payment, loan or contract. However, Its not about it "outlasting" something else, its the enjoyment or satisfaction the purchase may indeed bring.
Someone could have 6 rims, yeah they will last a long long time, but if they have that many how often does each get used or is really even needed. That does not mean they will not enjoy each for what they look/feel like etc.
I wish we had ACC gameplay footage of RT in action
Meanwhile here is more Battlefield.
Lots of info in this one:
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I am currently gaming at 1440p at 144hz, this RTX tech sounds like a massive performance hog on a £1000 gfx card.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-battlefield-5s-stunning-rtx-ray-tracing-tech
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-battlefield-5s-stunning-rtx-ray-tracing-tech
Durge Driven
DD
Nvidia give developers the new server with 10 times the computing in RT
Imagine what that means for workload if true
Developer leases DGX-2 over 3 years or buys for 400K
to recoup that in BF5 is nothing lol how many copies will it sell on PC ?
Scroll down
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/dgx-leasing/
As for RT it's slated for consoles in 2 generations time, how far is that away ?
ergo all the leg work perfecting technique etc will be done on PC before PS6
Imagine what that means for workload if true
Developer leases DGX-2 over 3 years or buys for 400K
to recoup that in BF5 is nothing lol how many copies will it sell on PC ?
Scroll down
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/dgx-leasing/
As for RT it's slated for consoles in 2 generations time, how far is that away ?
ergo all the leg work perfecting technique etc will be done on PC before PS6
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If I understand right this is meant for Ai development.
I saw a you tube guy talking about that maybe we should look at the RTX naming a little differently
RTX 2080ti Compare that to Titan GPU
RTX 2080 Compare to GTX 1080ti
RTX 2070 Compare to GTX 1080.
Kind of fits better with the price levels too!
But will the performance?
Durge Driven
DD
How about headlights diffusing in realtime compared to the bland static textures we get that defy physics. A car is lighted from behind you don't get light under car and shadows remain just as dark
When a car behind lights up your head it would be realtime shafts of light bouncing off objects not appearing as if there was nothing blocking it
Durge Driven
DD
Which again I say was totally ignored in this post, reflections is not the daddy
I am not saying ACC will have this incar or that RTX will be implemented fully.
For a start it takes creativity and will be a learning curve
Anyway shadows imho would do more for realism and ambiance in day or night then anything before
Makes me shiver what they could do for in cockpit at Lemans at night then add real time reflections
on top, wow just wow
Everyone realizes that light beams hit you from behind do barely anything dynamically, they don't shine under a car, shine through objects they shouldn't and their is no intensity difference its all one ugly texture one way or another
Another area this tech or similar should be able to improve is realistic flat spots with smoke spinning off
Much as I love rF2 people seem to think it has real time flat spots which is not right, I even got told that by a guy was in development team of a sim lol
It is all pre-conceived levels and static textures
Imagine what Ai learning could do just for this aspect alone
You could drag a car with a towtruck in gear and the tyres would wear through to the canvass in real time
Dynamically linked to suspension ( again not canned as in rf2 ) you would have all levels of vibration, not one that is subtle then anything more being indistinguishable
Sims have decades yet to get real and if you ask me disregarding tech like this is not the way to go about it.
Maybe someone more knowledgeable might be able to answer...
Just a thought. Aren't these the same Tensor cores that Nvidia was hoping to be fitting to autonomous vehicles sometime soon except won't be as said vehicles keep having accidents?
Could fitting them to gpu's instead, be a way of clearing stock and appeasing shareholders?
I still feel there is something iffy about this release. While the big three, Intel, Nvidia and AMD all make some great products, as businesses I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could spit.
Nvidia has ordered all board partners to provide the names and details of the reviewers they plan to use so that Nvidia can vet them. Only Nvidia approved reviewers will get samples and more importantly access to the drivers. Driver access is being handled in a very secure way so if an independent manages to get hold of a card, they wont be able to get hold of drivers.
This is a first for a GPU release and shows that Nvidia is working overtime to prevent any honest benchmarks. Why?
Expect any early reviews to be nothing more than a sales pitch. I hope that i'm wrong and that the future is almost here. I'll only believe it when I see it though.
Sidenote: We sim racers all have much experience of cars driven by A.I. Now imagine a time when all vehicles are autonomous...Lord preserve us!
Just a thought. Aren't these the same Tensor cores that Nvidia was hoping to be fitting to autonomous vehicles sometime soon except won't be as said vehicles keep having accidents?
Could fitting them to gpu's instead, be a way of clearing stock and appeasing shareholders?
I still feel there is something iffy about this release. While the big three, Intel, Nvidia and AMD all make some great products, as businesses I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could spit.
Nvidia has ordered all board partners to provide the names and details of the reviewers they plan to use so that Nvidia can vet them. Only Nvidia approved reviewers will get samples and more importantly access to the drivers. Driver access is being handled in a very secure way so if an independent manages to get hold of a card, they wont be able to get hold of drivers.
This is a first for a GPU release and shows that Nvidia is working overtime to prevent any honest benchmarks. Why?
Expect any early reviews to be nothing more than a sales pitch. I hope that i'm wrong and that the future is almost here. I'll only believe it when I see it though.
Sidenote: We sim racers all have much experience of cars driven by A.I. Now imagine a time when all vehicles are autonomous...Lord preserve us!
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