Simraceway

[still_bacon]

My concern with this title and style of game is it is based on the GMotor 2 engine (i.e. 2005 rFactor technology), and is just selling stuff that it gets from Modders around the world. They are paying a pittance for the thousands of hours these guys have put in to develop these 3D models.

So, as 1 company makes money selling a product based on redeveloping another companies outdated warez with the help of underpaid modelling talent, we sit here and complain about the price of buying a quality model of a current or historic car that we wish we had the money to own in the first place.

Now, I don't begrudge any business who are willing to try and make money from a business plan, but think of how many rFactor Mods that have been downloaded by you (and indeed rF2 future mods) for free in the past. I understand there are licensing issues with the sale of Mods, and that there have been some quality mods stopped because of this (BTCC is one example), but what if you had donated even $1.00 for each download to a modding group for their time and hard work, how much better would our racing community be.

I am a member of a Modding group, and have been since F1C days, and this is not a rant about me not making money from my hobby. I (and my team) do what we do for us, and release it for everyone else to enjoy.

Communities are supposed to get together and support each other. Think about how you treat your next door neighbour.

I just don't see how paying for something that has been created by exploiting modding talent will benefit and grow us as a community. What I can see is modders walking away from their passion and their hobby (and I have seen lots do this over the years), and us then being at the mercy of iRacing, or having to buy single car, arcade, unrealistic games that cost a mint.

Consider this...

 

[Ryan Vickery]

Uploaded my first Quick Race in the Lexus LFA, started from the front but I got rammed by some idiot into the first corner, but I stuck at it and worked my way back up through what was a fairly uncompetitive field back into first.

It was my first time driving the car so my driving isnt exactly great either! The ramming into the first corner made things interesting atleast and the car is an absolute blast to drive, it really is top level, you can really feel everything it does and make it do what you want it to do.

 

[Ryan Vickery]

What you are suggesting is that SimRaceway are merely buying content from modders and releasing it as their own, which is not how it works.

I see it this way. SimRaceway are a bunch of guys based out of San Fransisco and the Infineon Raceway, a small games development company of racing enthusiasts with their own world class test track. The game is built on the Gmotor 2 engine, but that is no different than the countless games built on the Unreal Tournament engine for example.

You word it in a way that makes it seems like they are a bunch of guys ripping off Rfactor modders so they can line their pockets. If you check the SimRaceway website they have job sections for artists and engineers alike, whether all these guys are sitting in their bedrooms in sweden or in an office In San Fransisco I don't know, but I do know these are guys under the employment of SimRaceway. I do know that one of the sound guys for example is also working on Project Cars.

The quality of the content they are putting out is very high, some higher than others but given the age of the engine they have done a fantastic job with it. When I played Rfactor I had countless mods and to be honest the majority of it was not good, some of it was fun and some of it was decent but none of it was actually as good as what is being put out in SimRaceway. The vast absolute majority of mods for Rfactor were comparitively amatuer in quality and though they did the job I don't think that it is even in the same league.

The reason I like SimRaceway is because though initially I thought it was a pile of garbage, one day I logged on there to try one of their test drive tuesday cars... and after 3 laps I had found something I had been looking for, It blew me away that this car was driving realistically, it felt good and it reacted properly, it drove like the magazines and youtube videos/reviews said it should drive. That one car model had pretty much done what nothing had really done before and given me a believeable and realistic driving experience that I didn't even think was possible from my past experience of the Gmotor 2.

Since then Game Stock Car has done similar things with the engine, but it still hasn't captured me in the way SimRaceway has with the vast variety and quality of its content and also with it's active and friendly community.


Price wise you can moan about the high prices but I now own most of the expensive content and did not pay anywhere near the shelf price for it, due to promotions and winning money from simply playing the game, a game that is 95% extremely good value for money.

 

[GTAce]

and is just selling stuff that it gets from Modders around the world.

This is not true!!! Before Ignite Game Technologies were involved, the SRW concept was made like this and this has changed! The content is scratch made for the game, I actually know someone who mapped tracks for it.

People who spread false information are the issue, not IGT and SRW!

EDIT:

The game is built on the Gmotor 2 engine, but that is no different than the countless games built on the Unreal Tournament engine for example.

Actually, ISI openly offers their engine for other projects, like simulators or, like in this case, games.
GSC is also running on gMotor 2.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Well, Ignite GT are involved from the beginning as they started Race.me/SRW1.0/SRW2.0 So before you are accusing people spreading false rumors better check your own facts a bit better GTAce.

Don't know about the modders though. Never seen an official statement that modding groups were making the cars. Models look pretty good and get released in a very high pace.

 

[still_bacon]

Sorry Ryan if I have seemed to make it sound like the big bad gaming companies are underpaying the modding community and paying a pittance for their work. This is essentially what I have witnessed.

Don't get me wrong, it is not the businesses fault. They are just running the business they had planned, and are making their purchases fit into the budget they have set. This could be seen as good business. Keep the overheads down to stay afloat

The point I was making is that we have such fantastic talent in the community, and it is walking away from this hobby because we are not supporting them. They are being taken for granted in this "I want it all for nothing" world.

Let me outline what I mean....
When you consider that a modelling contractor (which is how most gaming companies work, ISI included) can take anywhere up to 1500-2000 hours to create a fully detailed, high quality car model (or even a track model) from scratch.

(Yes.. all work is scratch built if it is a quality modder, and not ripped off another developer)

If we place an hourly rate on them as an "employee" of the company as it is said this is how it is mistakenly believed SRW works completely as, then how much would you consider their time to be worth???

Lets do the calculation...

As an employee on a $30K/annum salary, this amount would be $14/hr based on a 40 hour week. Do you think the gaming companies could afford to pay at least $21K in wages per model.... No.

That is why they contract the production of models to save themselves money, and that concept makes good business sense..

A gaming company would pay a contract modeller about 1/10th of the salary amount for their model depending on the job they did (I know of retail outlets that pay about 1/100th of the wages amount to use digital content).

By doing the maths, that means they are on $2.00 per hour.. Who would work for that amount??

Can you see the reason why there are less mods appearing in both rF and rF2, because the modders and modellers are not sticking around.

This is why we, as a sim racing community, need to support each other..

If you feel that you are happy to drive around and pay for content on SRW, iRacing, R3E and any other platform, then that is fine. I personally have paid for Bathurst on R3E the moment I started on the Beta and have no issues with saying that.

But if this is the way the sim racing community is heading, then my fear is that moddable games like rFactor and rF2 will die of a slow death, because there will be noone around to make quality mods. They will all have left our community.

Think about how old rFactor is..

How did it survive so long?? By community involvement.
How many SimBin titles have been released since rF has been??
How many codies games??

Lets find a way to develop and support our own community talent, no one else out there is going to have their interests in mind.........

 

[RaceNut]

I think your numbers are way off. All businesses have hidden costs - things that may not be apparent to the average person. The actual cost of doing business plus a wage is much higher than the hourly rate you use as an example. $14/hour may be what an employee is paid but, there are many other things that the company has to pay for in order to make that possible and that money has to come from somewhere. Even if you are making this about the "Free-Lance" model makers, $14/hour doesn't equal 30k per year - not even close.

There are hourly wage/cost calculators that can help paint the picture I am talking about. I own and run a small company and the average person would be astounded at the cost involved to run any business - even home based ones.

 

[David Dominguez]

But if this is the way the sim racing community is heading, then my fear is that moddable games like rFactor and rF2 will die of a slow death, because there will be noone around to make quality mods. They will all have left our community.

I don't think many people really cares about quality content. As long as they have the classic EA/Codemasters/Simbin game to import cars/tracks, that will be enough for 90% of rF1/2 users.

 

[GTAce]

Well, Ignite GT are involved from the beginning as they started Race.me/SRW1.0/SRW2.0 So before you are accusing people spreading false rumors better check your own facts a bit better GTAce.

Don't know about the modders though. Never seen an official statement that modding groups were making the cars. Models look pretty good and get released in a very high pace.

I got a bit confused because the team was called Ignite Skill Gaming back then, this is how it started:

If you´ve been an active in the sim racing community for the past 2 1/2 years, the name Ignite Skill Gaming probably does ring a bell. If it does not, Simraceway surely will.
Back in 2009, Ignite Skill Gaming bought rFactorcentral and subsequently launched Simraceway.com, a platform that hosted paid online racing events with mod community content without the consent of the original creators.
This issue created a big uproar in the community (and on this very website) that led to a boycott of the new website that most major mod groups joined. The boycott caused Simraceway to (somewhat reluctantly) remove the content in question from their website as their service continued.
The whole concept however didn’t really take off in the community much as Simraceway failed to make big a impact in the sim racing community and was quickly forgotten by many people. Now, the chapter can be completely closed as Ignite Skill Gaming has acquired a whopping $7.5 million dollars to turn Simraceway into an online racing game.
The free-to-play online game will offer licensed cars and tracks and will compete for an emerging market that more and more big industry players like Eutechnyx’s Autoclub Revolution join. Since these types of online games rarely offer realistic racing, VirtualR won’t be covering Ignite Skill’s new endeavour but it is good to finally put the whole Simraceway issue to rest once and for all.
Despite the change of plans regarding Simraceway, the company still maintains a visible presence in the sim racing community as ownership of rFactorcentral and other resources is retained.

http://www.virtualr.net/ignite-skill-gaming-to-develop-online-racing-game

Nothing of this applies today though.
The cars are all made for SRW only, same with tracks (people assumed Mid-Ohio is just a conversion from Virtua_LMs version, which is utter nonesense), no modding content, no ripped off modding teams, nothing. The whole stuff just isn't true.

But if this is the way the sim racing community is heading, then my fear is that moddable games like rFactor and rF2 will die of a slow death, because there will be noone around to make quality mods. They will all have left our community.

Assetto Corsa will be fully moddable.

I see the problem elsewhere. A lot of modders don't finish their work (Virtua_LM Group C anyone?), after months, or years of previews. Another thing I always found problematic, are stubborn modders who don't want to see their stuff converted to other platforms. When I built something and someone else offers me to convert it to a different platform (GTR² to rFactor for example), with full credits given and quality control, I would never say "no, I don't want my mod in X game". I saw that happening a lot and then the modders are surprised that people do it without permission.

 

[Lee Knight]

One of my problems with SRW is that if you pay for a car it should be fully sorted & basically perfect but in a way they're not...
As an example; for myself & a small portion of the market we CAN'T race in cockpit view, personally I race in front end/bumper view.
Now take just about every one of SRW's cars & place the front end against a wall & see exactly where that views camera is placed....
Some cars are half the body length behind & the rest that Ive tried are anywhere up to 2/3rds of a car length in front.
It makes driving them bloody hard, I can tell you that much!
Get in touch with SRW about it & your told a fix is not a priority as of this time after all we're in 'Open Beta'....
(Also their excuse for fps issues on systems that surpass the minimum requirements!)
Go into the files & fix it yourself & make a back up because with every update it's going to be over-written & DON'T go passing the files back to SRW saying, "Here's a fix, can you include this in the next updates for above reasons" & you'll be either ignored or told that SRW isn't meant to be modded & stay out of OUR(???) files or else....

Also, If your paying/paid for a car & with some update it suddenly works no more then you expect it to be fixed (Morgan 3wheeler), NOT told for months at a time "we're working on it" when in actual fact nothing has happened.

Oh, and if they're not pinching bits, then why would they suddenly start encrypting files once someone says, "Look in Mid-Ohio's AIW file & it says VLM"?
If you know how hard it is to match an AIW from one track with another completely different build, even if it is the same track, then you can see the problem here, never mind textures in other tracks lifted directly from BTB Xpacks that state in their Read Me's "Not for commercial use, please thank author in final build Read Me".

Lastly, don't even think of inquiring as to using one of their models to port across to another game, even if you were thinking of paying for it, it'll only illicit threats of legal action...

 

[GTAce]

As an example; for myself & a small portion of the market we CAN'T race in cockpit view, personally I race in front end/bumper view.

I think if you "can't" drive in the (fully adjustable) cockpit view, that's a bit your problem.
I also don't play a first person shooter and complain about the view.

Also, If your paying/paid for a car & with some update it suddenly works no more then you expect it to be fixed (Morgan 3wheeler), NOT told for months at a time "we're working on it" when in actual fact nothing has happened.

What exactly is your issue? I never had a problem with the cars.

Oh, and if they're not pinching bits, then why would they suddenly start encrypting files once someone says, "Look in Mid-Ohio's AIW file & it says VLM"?
If you know how hard it is to match an AIW from one track with another completely different build, even if it is the same track, then you can see the problem here, never mind textures in other tracks lifted directly from BTB Xpacks that state in their Read Me's "Not for commercial use, please thank author in final build Read Me".

Can you prove anything?
Especially the texture stuff.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

Ive never tried the other views to drive from.. So i dont know how bad they are , but any view for me that's not sat in cockpit seems strange so i can understand that one
Even on a small monitor i still use the cockpit view...for me its so much more immersive..
but each to there own..
It was only a couple of months ago i was not happy the Grid 2 will have no cockpit views
so i can see how it can be annoying when there is not the view you would like to race from..

I cant say id blame them, when asking to use their car models in another sim i think that would be the norm for any game producer.. Codies,SimBin.Reiza, although it still happens without permission alot of times by moders who rip there games whether it be for private use or to put in their own sim..
But its best not to even talk about that one..

 

[Ryan Vickery]

I noticed you changing my posts into their own threads, but the discussion taking place about this game is so limited, and news like this really isn't necessarily worthy of its own thread, or soon enough we will have a massive forum section full of threads with only 1-2 posts.

I think that considering the small ammount of traffic in the thread, the one SimRaceway thread was a better place to discuss the game, It saw probably a handful of posts a week, most of them from myself with small updates about the game.

 

[Ryan Vickery]

Talking about the Morgan 3 wheeler, a lot of people have issues with it not working and others do not, It didn't work for me but not only did they refund me but also let me keep it so that I'd be able to use it when a fix was applied. Why that car is such a problem I have no idea.

The talk of them stealing other peoples content is quite laughable, I saw a whole lot of fuss over one of my videos where somebody noticed how similar the Atom V8 sounded compared to the Project CARS Atom V8, there was a lot of fuss and talk of SimRaceway stealing the sounds. Then the sound guy came forward and mentioned that he worked on both games.

People are poking their noses around and making accusations when they have no idea what is actually going on in the background with development and licencing.

 

[Lee Knight]

I think if you "can't" drive in the (fully adjustable) cockpit view, that's a bit your problem.
I also don't play a first person shooter and complain about the view.

I KNOW I can't drive in a cockpit, just as I KNOW Im slower driving with a wheel.
(In fact, I wouldn't go online with a wheel as I'd be a danger to everyone else, but this isn't the point)
I drive rFactor like that & I used to drive the Gran Tourismo series like that.
I don't feel a part of the car otherwise & the view is just too 'cluttered' for me...
I guess it's because Im missing the other senses of being in a real car or it could be that I can't afford & don't have a monitor as large as a windshield, or at least that can be perceived to as such.
If they want everyone to drive via cockpit view only, then all they need to do is place '//' at the start of the entry for the other views.
If they are going to provide it, as paid content it SHOULD work!
Or, to use your analogy, how would YOU feel, playing your first person shooter with the site either too far ahead to see through properly or too far behind so you can't see it at all?

What exactly is your issue? I never had a problem with the cars.

Tried driving the Morgan in the last couple of months?
I know you have it as it was your picture of it at NoGrip that alerted me to SRW's existence.
If you pay for something then surely you should expect it to work whether it costs 45cents, $45 or $4500!
AND, if they claim that software that you pay for & is on your computer is STILL there's as implied by one of the replies I had concerning my efforts to fix the view, then surely they have a duty to fix it.
Never mind the fact that there's people still parting with money to by that vehicle & it's not working for them either...
Maybe you should go check that thread in their forum site.

Can you prove anything?
Especially the texture stuff.

Kormoran2003_roads grass texture is used in Paradise Bay
Easily recognizable as I've used them a few time in BTB

AIW can no longer be accessed to prove that other point as it's now encrypted & before it was I never thought to copy 'their' file for gaining grudge points in a thread months down the track.
I read about it in a thread & took a look for myself & was surprised to find that it was true.
Not that I really care as it's up to whoever originally made the track to take action about it & so far they haven't as far as I know...

I cant say id blame them, when asking to use their car models in another sim i think that would be the norm for any game producer.. Codies,SimBin.Reiza, although it still happens without permission alot of times by moders who rip there games whether it be for private use or to put in their own sim..
But its best not to even talk about that one..

I can understand their stance too, but I wasn't prepared for the blunt way in which they replied to my generalised question which WAS worded in such a way that it should have been obvious it was hypothetical.
I wasn't actually asking for permission at that point, just that if a sensible request could/would be granted....
The reason I HAD asked it was because I'd heard of them going strait for the lawyers when someone had inevitably turned up with a few of their models 'ripped' to another game & was curious as to what would happen if it was done in an up-front & honest manner...

Thank you Rupe for your mature & measured response.

GTAce, your replies here to anyone with a view other than praise for SRW are bordering on 'Fanboy-ism' as well as verging on rude.
My previous post was just me commenting on a couple of issues I've noted with this product & are my opinion based on the facts as I understand them at this time.
If Im wrong in any way then I'd be glad to learn otherwise to save me repeating the misguided mistake again at some point in the future & preferably to be corrected by conversing in a manner fitting to a normal conversation.

There IS much to like about SRW, but for me, there are also some faults & their common response of 'it's in Open Beta' only go so far.
Will it always be this way?
I hope not.
Will it improve?
I hope so as it does have a lot of potential.

Just praising a product or someones work is NOT constructive criticism & doesn't lead to one pushing themselves further towards improvement.
Don't worry, I don't hide on forums & wait to bag a person or company, if I see something wrong I tell them & generally with a different tone to what you took to me earlier.
Im only mentioning this as I can take it on the chin, but there ARE others out there who can't & don't or they just get the wrong end of the stick due to a language barrier.

My apologies for the lengthy reply & multiple edits fixing missed points & sloppy punctuation,
BLeeK

 

[Jonathan Holmes]

The car might be expensive, but the prizes for cars with a high price are also quite high. By winning Intermediate + Advanced (Until this rule is changed!) it's possible to make like $70 (?) minus the cost of the car obviously, but then it's always in your garage for the next events!

 

[Lee Knight]

Talking about the Morgan 3 wheeler, a lot of people have issues with it not working and others do not, It didn't work for me but not only did they refund me but also let me keep it so that I'd be able to use it when a fix was applied. Why that car is such a problem I have no idea.

The Moggy used to work fine for me but after an update a while back it just suddenly stopped working....
Strangely enough, it still shows up in Ghost replays although there is no outter skin at all & some parts are missing along with it jerking back & forth by a car length each side of center along it's recorded path...
I have forwarded on the relevant files to SRW in the hope that it may guide them to finding a cure.
I've personally had no offer of a refund.
If I had more knowledge of how car mods worked I'd take a look at it myself as it's my favourite car on there along with the classic McLaren.

 

[Travis]

I'm always here reading your posts

 

[Devil_Dog]

I'm always here reading your posts

Same here. Keep it coming.

 

[Ryan Vickery]

The Moggy used to work fine for me but after an update a while back it just suddenly stopped working....
Strangely enough, it still shows up in Ghost replays although there is no outter skin at all & some parts are missing along with it jerking back & forth by a car length each side of center along it's recorded path...
I have forwarded on the relevant files to SRW in the hope that it may guide them to finding a cure.
I've personally had no offer of a refund.
If I had more knowledge of how car mods worked I'd take a look at it myself as it's my favourite car on there along with the classic McLaren.

They didnt offer me a refund, I asked for one.