Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[blekenbleu]

Angry words

Imagine that...
IMO, Discord works for Wotever, as the SimHub developer,
but Race Dept seems a better vehicle for joint development efforts
e.g. of SimHub profiles, where individuals can create threads
as appropriate for new or derived contributions,
instead of being jumbled into relatively arbitrary channels.

 

[NetLawMan]

Please explain what the ideal option is for people without a lot of cash?

My point was that this system seems either complex or expensive (when using the ideal configuration). It raises the question of whether the system is worth it when not using the “preferred/suggested” configuration. For example, you can buy a two actuator motion system, even though 4 actuators is ideal. For me personally, the loss in functionality with only two is not worth it so I would select a different option all-together if only the 2 actuator was within my budget.

My get-to-the-point questions:

What is the “preferred/suggested” HW configuration?

What is the average market cost of the “preferred/suggested” HW configuration”? Including everything you need other than layperson labor?

What is the functionality delta when not going with the “preferred/suggested” HW configuration?

I think a quick reference with the answers to these questions belong in a new thread kicking off this new phase of the project, but it sounds like you are already going in that direction.

P.S. - to answer you question, that is up to the individual to decide what is ideal features for the money they can afford.

 

[RCHeliguy]

For example, you can buy a two actuator motion system, even though 4 actuators is ideal. For me personally, the loss in functionality with only two is not worth it so I would select a different option all-together if only the 2 actuator was within my budget.

Why are you always trying to get people to pick a single solution?

I just ordered a 4 actuator D-Box Gen5 system($7500) and mounting brackets($250). I still want my tactile system.

I know a few Gen3 owners and a Gen5 owner now who also have a tactile system and they thought it was worth it.

You'll find people here with SFX-100, PT-Actuator, NLRv3, and other motions systems who also have Tactile systems.

Most of the individuals in this thread think tactile is worthwhile. Please feel free to tell them all how wrong they are.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

We renamed the Discord server "Good Vibrations" to help set a positive tone for sharing and collaborations

Almost like "Good Vibe", clever.

 

[NetLawMan]

I should ask why are you so sensitive? I am interested in learning more, but I can’t do that by reviewing hundreds of pages of a thread. So I’m asking some simple questions.

Moreover, you just spend substantial time going on and on about the break up, and how RaceBass was going in different directions. So my questions were legitimate and trying to understand more about those directions, particularly since the dividing point seems to be the preferred configuration vs cost/complexity/effort.

Finally, my questions are focused solely on tactile, and not motion (although I used my experience with motion as an example of the logic I would use when deciding whether to go with RaceBass or just stick with a simple tactile setup that I have now). Not sure why you brought up dbox (although congrats because it is a great system).

If this system is intended to be solely for the dedicated diehard, just say so and people like me won’t bother. I thought an ultimate goal was to make it easy and accessible. If this is the response people get to legitimate questions about what things cost, I can see why it is struggling .

 

[RCHeliguy]

Almost like "Good Vibe", clever.

Had to google that and got Good Vibes. Funny, but not quite what we are going for.

 

[NetLawMan]

I should ask why are you so sensitive? I am interested in learning more, but I can’t do that by reviewing hundreds of pages of a thread. So I’m asking some simple questions.

Moreover, you just spend substantial time going on and on about the break up, and how RaceBass was going in different directions. So my questions were legitimate and trying to understand more about those directions, particularly since the dividing point seems to be the preferred configuration vs cost/complexity/effort.

Finally, my questions are focused solely on tactile, and not motion (although I used my experience with motion as an example of the logic I would use when deciding whether to go with RaceBass or just stick with a simple tactile setup that I have now). Not sure why you brought up dbox (although congrats because it is a great system).

If this system is intended to be solely for the dedicated diehard, just say so and people like me won’t bother. I thought an ultimate goal was to make it easy and accessible. If this is the response people get to legitimate questions about what things cost, I can see why it is struggling .

I guess what I am trying to say is that I too am interested in a system like this, but to date the cost/complexity/aesthetics/maintenance of it has been too high for me. Historically this thread has not helped matters, and I am looking for new info.

If you look at my questions to other vendors on this forum, I push pretty hard at asking relevant questions. Those that embrace that and provide answers are the ones that I prefer to buy from.

My Get-To-The-Point questions re-iterated:

What is the “preferred/suggested” HW configuration?

What is the average market cost of the “preferred/suggested” HW configuration”? Including everything you need other than layperson labor?

What is the functionality delta when not going with the “preferred/suggested” HW configuration?

 

[RCHeliguy]

You ask some great questions!

If this was a turn key product, I might have answers for you.

Sounds like a bad fit for you based on your feelings and the amount of effort you are willing to expend.

Maybe an appropriate explanation in terms you would understand are that this is more like the SFX-100 project, IF we had stayed open from the start and IF there had already been a commercial product for it to compete with.

As it is there is no commercial off the shelf product available that this remotely competes with.

We will be providing a large document with a list of recommended hardware and there are options that work well with our profiles as a starting point.

Then we will see how opening those up and porting them to other hardware works and take it from there. This is very clearly a DIY project rather than a product.

 

[NetLawMan]

You ask some great questions!

If this was a turn key product, I might have answers for you.

Sounds like a bad fit for you based on your feelings and the amount of effort you are willing to expend.

Maybe an appropriate explanation in terms you would understand are that this is more like the SFX-100 project, IF we had stayed open from the start and IF there had already been a commercial product for it to compete with.

As it is there is no commercial off the shelf product available that this remotely competes with.

We will be providing a large document with a list of recommended hardware and there are options that work well with our profiles as a starting point.

Then we will see how opening those up and porting them to other hardware works and take it from there. This is very clearly a DIY project rather than a product.

Thank you for the clarity. It is appreciated. It would be great if you guys provided some reference hardware setups. Something along the lines of here are three reference hardware configurations representing the following 3 tiers of functionality.

Correct, for me personally, it is probably not the best fit, but for others, this type of info would be highly valuable.

 

[Jivesauce]

OK.....

Most of you know that I've been involved with Race Bass for a while. Well, everything has been shaken up and there is a complete reorganization taking place. It probably won't be complete until September. We are trying to take the parts of this that are fun and remove the parts causing pain and aggravation. We are also trying to create a more inclusive tactile group that shares what we have all learned about tactile.

Key point #1 Race Bass tactile profiles, DSP profiles, hardware recommendations and full documentation will be available with no paywall of any kind or any requirement of any hardware purchase.

However, I would like to set some expectations before this happens. These profiles are very highly specialized for the standardized hardware that Rodney has recommended. They are very complex with many layers working together across multiple transducer types.

What this means is that for a single effect that there may be 3 or 4 separate layers for the large BK's and 3 or 4 more for the TST's and another few for the exciters. They are designed to work together so you can feel numerous effects at the same time and the effects are designed to utilize the frequency ranges of those specific transducers. Entire layers may exist below 20 Hz and work to create a harmonic with another layer and some layers are higher frequencies such that many layers will barely register on say an Aura that has a narrow frequency range.

There are also multiple variations for some effects with some favoring realism and other sim rig effects that people enjoy feeling but may not be as true to life. We all know how this works with FFB. Sometimes sim racers like to feel a few extra things because it adds to the experience. Others want as true to reality as possible. There are enough variations to be a bit overwhelming at first.

These effects absolutely work great if you have matching hardware.

However we've even seen that with the recommended BK/TST pairings but without exciters, some are not as happy with the newer effects which use exciters as part of the whole system compared with the earlier effects that were entirely BK/TST based.

So in the end YMMV in terms of how these work out of the box on your system.

So what about me with my Aura's or Reckhorns ?
There is a much larger group out there with all sorts of tactile configurations and transducers and SimHub tweaking experience.

Key Point #2 Supporting the larger DIY community There will be an effort to organize the efforts of people who want to develop and share their profiles and tactile efforts.

I have no doubt that people will find ways to adapt Rodney's profiles to work within the limitations of different hardware, and that some people will be able to tweak them to work with their particular systems.

There are also other people actively trying to develop their own effects for less expensive or simply different tactile systems.

We want to support all of that.

Key Point #3 The elephant in the room....
Rodney and RaceBass have been a lightning rod over the years. It's no secret that Rodney has strong opinions, likes his way of doing things and has rubbed many the wrong way.

Rodney will be Rodney and he will have a Race Bass area in this new structure where he is king. It will be for people following his suggested hardware solutions and he will have complete control of this area.

This public release will likely not change Rodney's direction. He's been on a mission for a while now to see what is possible. He will continue working in the high end pushing boundaries further. That is the nature of his drive and what is fun for him. So new profiles will continue to developed and continue to make people following his guidelines very happy and by extension be fun for him.

For the non-elephants
There will be a distinctly separate DIY area for people who are not following Rodney's suggestions. This will be an organized and moderated space for civil discussions. Rodney will be subject to moderation just like anyone else. The intention is to add moderators to this space who have no Race Bass affiliation and just want to keep the conversations constructive.

This area will have a repository of Rodney's Race Bass profiles for people to download. It will also have an area for other user profiles with the requirement that the hardware that they are designed for is specified to help people find profiles that match the hardware they own.

Structure will be added as needed. There will be some read only channels that only store profiles or documentation so they can be easily found by others and not lost in long chat dialogs.

Details on how to join this Discord group will come over the next month.

I've been out of this world for awhile, but this sounds like a neat project. Based on the description, I'm assuming that Rodney is Mr. Latte?

 

[blekenbleu]

some reference hardware setups

Two are easy, with Mark's approaching some upper limit,
as described in his thread and videos,
especially the February Rig Update:

For an entry level, the Sim Racing Studio ShakeSeat,
a moderately powerful yard sale surround receiver
and PC 7.1 or 5.1 soundcard (or motherboard sound).
A turnkey alternative is SRS' U-Shake6, which
(unlike the previous 2) includes SRS software,
although it probably could instead be driven by SimHub.
A ShakeSeat is simply a seat cushion with 4 Dayton Pucks;
being in practically direct contact with the driver,
they are capable of strong and useful and/or evocative sensations,
for anyone who has ever sat in a race car with an engine running
that is directly bolted to its chassis with no isolation.

As different as are Mark's and SRS's solutions,
they share a key aspect
in contriving to deliver tactile energy to drivers
without wasting energy
shaking e.g. sim chassis or wheel stands.

 

[RCHeliguy]

with Mark's approaching some upper limit,

I hate to break this to you but my rig is a Level 1 Race Bass system, and I recently heard Rodney say that he thinks he's gone about as far as he can go with that.

We have at least one maybe two people with tactile plates under their seats with two TST's and two large BK's on them. I think someone even maxed his plate out with 4 x BK's Some people have more exciters and someone mounted a rather large transducer to his brake pedal.

I've decided that I'm quite happy with where I am, but Rodney continues to want to push the limits of what can be done.

He's worked very hard to make effects able to be felt without drowning each other out, by spreading effects across transducers and by using many layers.

Now he wants to take everything to the next level.

So even I may be getting left behind, unless I am once again convinced to take things up a notch.

 

[blekenbleu]

make effects able to be felt without drowning each other out, by spreading effects across transducers and by using many layers.

Tactile transducers are quite nonlinear, resulting in what is called intermodulation distortion, wanting separate transducers per effect to mitigate. Widely separated frequencies in a single transducer will still affect each other, generating sum and difference frequency artifacts.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Tactile transducers are quite nonlinear, resulting in what is called intermodulation distortion, wanting separate transducers per effect to mitigate. Widely separated frequencies in a single transducer will still affect each other, generating sum and difference frequency artifacts.

I don't bother debating this stuff.

He will test, measure, learn and figure out what works in a relentless fashion. I have a lot of respect for what he does, I just don't have the level of dedication he has.

He's also got some pretty advanced equipment to measure with while he experiments.

 

[blekenbleu]

Triangulating NetLawMan's reference hardware request,
at least to a first approximation, one transducer is wanted per effect,
with transducer size corresponding to mass being moved
while generating its tactile effect,
that mass and size also correlated to required amplifier power.

 

[KnIgHtCoM]

What is the “preferred/suggested” HW configuration?

What is the average market cost of the “preferred/suggested” HW configuration”? Including everything you need other than layperson labor?

Just for the tactile hardware alone, you're looking at about $3000 for a Level 1 Race Bass setup. And another couple hundred dollars for isolators, brackets and plates to get everything mounted correctly.

 

[anton_Chez]

I spent 600 AUD on parts for 12 isolation dampers and a plate. So, more than couple hundred there too but it depends how many you do. Add another 100 at least for the cables and speaker wire also. So, it becomes very clear that Race Bass was only ever going to target the most high end of sim builds. Most people's sim racing hardware, entirely, would not reach the value of the Race Bass level 1.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

$4K for entry level setup, and we are essentially talking about just some driving distracting buzzing and kicking in the butt?
It's a bit hard to swallow even for sim racing enthusiasts, unless working on tactile is the only joy you have left in life.

 

[OlaGB]

You can get a LFE, a TST329 and a nx3000 for about $1500, and alot less if you find some used stuff.. If you want exciters, you should come a long way with $100-150.
A spring kit can be made for less than $80 if you dont have to have the logo on it.

3-4k is way more than a entry level setup, and the law of dimising returns definently plays in just as any other highend level of equipment.

 

[RCHeliguy]

$4K for entry level setup, and we are essentially talking about just some driving distracting buzzing and kicking in the butt?
It's a bit hard to swallow even for sim racing enthusiasts, unless working on tactile is the only joy you have left in life.

I just found out that my new D-Box Gen5 should be on the way in a couple weeks, so I'm really hoping to have the best of both worlds. I am expecting an enjoyable ride!

The fact is that real racers tend not to have either motion or tactile because they are both more for immersion than anything else and I've heard a lot of people say that their lap times dropped when they added motion. I'm sure the same applies for tactile. It feels great, but making you feel like you are in a moving car doesn't make you faster.

Of course it's also true that they same people have said they could never go back to not having their motion or tactile.

Go figure!