Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Shrive81]

Had mine mounted on a plate sticking out behind the seat. Screwed the plate in between the platform and the seat.

Ok ya how did that work out? just thought of using button head bolts going through the race seat holding the LFE in place attached to the back of the seat for direct feel from them.

 

[anton_Chez]

It was OK but they were Aura units at the time, no Mini LFE. I have the Mini's now, mounted different. I no longer use the V3 motion. Seat mount would be better but it depends if you can / want to mount directly to it.

 

[anton_Chez]

I'll try these values and see how we go.

 

[anton_Chez]

So I tried the settings for Speed and RPM (with slightly altered hz but not by much I think) and it's really good. No pinging or clipping anywhere now and I'm running the RPM at a higher volume that ever. 75% before the units start cutting out the signal. That's with the test button, though, which I find extremely annoying. It gives terrible feedback, my units sound like they're going to break when using it. Yet, in game, I rev full throttle, both in gear and neutral and it's smooth as anything. Even tried a high RPM formula car to see if the higher revs made it ping and distort, but it doesn't. Not yet anyway.

I've got a nice balance now. I like to run higher volumes now because it's harder to feel the tactile through the SFX-100 system when it's running. But it's pretty good! Sticking with this for a while now I think.

Thanks Rod

 

[nolive721]

I finished my DIY cart type of support last week so I can move around my PLAYSEAT Evolution between my TV set and my Triple monitors desk without too much of hassle

the industrial casters at the back have brakes so its damn stable and I am really pleased with the fact I have manged to keep things compact
https://ibb.co/QKqjZvf

I have now started to buy what I need for the bass shakers implementation but I am conscious that this low frequency input would induce rattling in the seat, the rig frame and of course the cart underneath(I feel sorry for the neighbours under our apartment)

So I was thinking to decouple the rig from the cart by placing a bunch of rubber feet all around it, in sandwich with the PLAYSEAT frame, with that

https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B00PXZI4KK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

that way, rattling of the cart should be limited and the vibration from the pucks should transmit more efficiently to my body instead

makes sense or are there better solutions that you guys have achieved on your rig with a similar support underneath?

 

[Mr Latte]

So I tried the settings for Speed and RPM (with slightly altered hz but not by much I think) and it's really good. No pinging or clipping anywhere now and I'm running the RPM at a higher volume that ever. 75% before the units start cutting out the signal. That's with the test button, though, which I find extremely annoying. It gives terrible feedback, my units sound like they're going to break when using it. Yet, in game, I rev full throttle, both in gear and neutral and it's smooth as anything. Even tried a high RPM formula car to see if the higher revs made it ping and distort, but it doesn't. Not yet anyway.

I've got a nice balance now. I like to run higher volumes now because it's harder to feel the tactile through the SFX-100 system when it's running. But it's pretty good! Sticking with this for a while now I think.

Thanks Rod

Good you got some success, that was with just some quick mucking around. I've yet to really spend a good deal of time regards tuning effects, so yeah Im sure we can get decent sensations. I was waiting on the major update to become available for Shakeit before really digging my teeth into it.

The "RPM" effect complements really well the "engine audio tactile". I prefer the "Speed Effect" over "Wind Noise" in Simvibe. The Mini LFE are not that detailed beyond 80Hz IIRC so these exciters being looked at will bring much more life to the felt engine sensations if combined with the units you have. Cheap upgrade that seems well worth doing.

However I still think its a good idea to use specific tactile for engine roles. These engine/speed effects are very constant in their operation so tend to mask the sensations of other effects.

 

[roundabout]

You guys should really look at testing and utilising seat/body zones (under knees, shoulders, spine, sides). It's an excellent way to enhance the tactile you feel. Having these units combine with other larger or more capable units. Shakeit gives us excellent control of placing what effects go where. Also unlike Simvibe or other software it is not limited to a single soundcard or supporting only 4 units per card. We can use multiple cards/multiple units and easily place any effect to one or all channels.

It is worth experimenting with.
General tactile under the seat frame or seat supports is only one option, not necessarily the only thing we should do or consider. Once you have knees/shoulders/sides all feeling stereo based effects it greatly increases the immersion of them.

This is similar to my approach. Rather than have one or two large shakers I have six cheap amazon 100w shakers and 4 xbox rumble motors mounted and pointed at at body / seat / pedals / shifter contact locations as close as possible - one shaker each side directly below seat under 'sit bones', one centre front below seat under thighs, one centre of seat back and one under each heel below pedal plates. Rumble motors are under shifter, on brake pedal and one behind each shoulder. The shaker pairs below pedals and seat are 4 way directional bumps (low freq) and wheel slip (high freq), the seat front and back is engine rpm, the gear shifter and shoulder blade motors are all gear change and the brake pedal motor is wheel slip.

This gives fantastic immersion. The shakers just fit and are about as big as could be fitted. They are powered by 3 relatively cheap PA amps. The only slight downside is the lack of very low frequencies which bigger shakers would provide but the amount of vibration energy is more than enough as they are practically touching so they are turned down to around 80% at max (80% of potential shaker output, amps can put out 190w per shaker so are at around 45%). I put usb fans moving air over the shakers as they do get hot.

With SimShakerWheels experimenting with all of these was time consuming but with Shakeit it was much simpler, with the added bonus that I could add the vibration motors for very low cost. The rumble motors helped, particularly with gear change, which I struggled to get a satisfactory distinct sensation for with just shakers. I can highly recommend experimenting with adding vibration motors, whilst the frequency range is limited, it costs very little and they can be fitted in a very small space. It does need some soldering for the Arduino but wasn't complicated to work out.

 

[Mr Latte]

This is similar to my approach. Rather than have one or two large shakers I have six cheap amazon 100w shakers and 4 xbox rumble motors mounted and pointed at at body / seat / pedals / shifter contact locations as close as possible - one shaker each side directly below seat under 'sit bones', one centre front below seat under thighs, one centre of seat back and one under each heel below pedal plates. Rumble motors are under shifter, on brake pedal and one behind each shoulder. The shaker pairs below pedals and seat are 4 way directional bumps (low freq) and wheel slip (high freq), the seat front and back is engine rpm, the gear shifter and shoulder blade motors are all gear change and the brake pedal motor is wheel slip.

This gives fantastic immersion. The shakers just fit and are about as big as could be fitted. They are powered by 3 relatively cheap PA amps. The only slight downside is the lack of very low frequencies which bigger shakers would provide but the amount of vibration energy is more than enough as they are practically touching so they are turned down to around 80% at max (80% of potential shaker output, amps can put out 190w per shaker so are at around 45%). I put usb fans moving air over the shakers as they do get hot.

With SimShakerWheels experimenting with all of these was time consuming but with Shakeit it was much simpler, with the added bonus that I could add the vibration motors for very low cost. The rumble motors helped, particularly with gear change, which I struggled to get a satisfactory distinct sensation for with just shakers. I can highly recommend experimenting with adding vibration motors, whilst the frequency range is limited, it costs very little and they can be fitted in a very small space. It does need some soldering for the Arduino but wasn't complicated to work out.

Interesting experimentation, I like it, if you want to share images etc but don't think I would go the motor route. Can you link the cheap Amazon shakers you mention?

If I get and compare some more of these exciters to then discover which is the best option to use. I would be curious if you could then purchase 1 or 2 and compare with both the motors and shakers you have. My thoughts are the better performing exciter units may operate better than the motors and can easily be stuck to surfaces. Can you give more info on the best working frequency range of the motors and the other units you have?

So far the best exciter I have, while not limited to only this range is working well from 30Hz - 200Hz and even 250Hz. It has quite strong output in the 40-60Hz range too and surprising for its size. I will later compare them to the Dayton Pucs I have but believe these are better.

Its drawbacks so far are its crimp based connections and requirement for crossover control. Although this can be done on a basic level with a soundcard EQ.

 

[roundabout]

Interesting experimentation, I like it, if you want to share images etc but don't think I would go the motor route. Can you link the cheap Amazon shakers you mention?

If I get and compare some more of these exciters to then discover which is the best option to use. I would be curious if you could then purchase 1 or 2 and compare with both the motors and shakers you have. My thoughts are the better performing exciter units may operate better than the motors and can easily be stuck to surfaces. Can you give more info on the best working frequency range of the motors and the other units you have?

So far the best exciter I have, while not limited to only this range is working well from 30Hz - 200Hz and even 250Hz. It has quite strong output in the 40-60Hz range too and surprising for its size. I will later compare them to the Dayton Pucs I have but believe these are better.

Its drawbacks so far are its crimp based connections and requirement for crossover control. Although this can be done on a basic level with a soundcard EQ.

Cheap shakers I bought a while ago, these look to be the same. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unknown-Bodyshaker/dp/B002LQAHPE/

These are bigger than the exciters you are testing but have similar peak output around 40-80Hz, dropping off completely below 20Hz. They are also crimp connections but I soldered these to avoid any loosening with vibration.

They do work up to about 250Hz but I find anything much above 100Hz reduces the immersion as the shakers tend to lose separation and blend together as more of a buzz than a beat or hit but I am yet to play around with mixing audio tactile which may benefit more from this. I am therefore not sure that testing the smaller exciters would add much for me as I could emulate the effect by reducing power and increasing frequencies with the shakers I have. If I experiment with audio tactile and it is effective for me I may consider adding them.

I'll try and get some photo's over the weekend.

Shakeit screenshots are below.

 

[Mr Latte]

@roundabout

Thanks for response and screens.

These exciters can extend the felt tactile effects also generated from SBS (Shakeit Bass Shaker). It's not just "audio-tactile" that they can help increase the detail of.

Keep in mind one important aspect with this approach I am highlighting is the ability to place these directly to body regions.

We can experiment with this by using specific effects to operate only on certain units or use them for specific roles. Be it "engine/gear" or "audio tactile" only roles. This lets us experiment, to have multiple effects displaced with good detailing and avoiding a unit being muddled with several effects it has to generate. The exciters will struggle with multiple effects, especially if adding "telemetry RPM/Speed".

Trying units as "audio-tactile only" is also an option compared to mixing certain units to produce both.
Part of the fun is discovering what effects or configuration works really well and helps improve the immersion.

What I can tell people with certainty is that this approach is worth experimenting with. What I can't say yet is what are the best working combinations in how we place effects/channels and also combine audio-tactile either via mixing or units with set roles.

Own Build Update
I am still working on my own new build but the tactile isolation/structural-frame solution for the build is costing over £1200 in materials with the design I have. Got most of the stuff purchased but still need more before I can start putting it together, it's not like any other rig I have seen and has taken 2 years of on/off testing ideas/concepts while I continued to further extend how many/what tactile it would incorporate.

The rig will not have the problematic issue that most have with L/R tactile units energy and their effects mixing in the pedal region. As the whole rig will have its own independent L/R sections, with each side supported by 6x substantial isolator towers using various combined materials.

This concept should extend the purity of directional effects as the only primary "affecting bridge" for L/R effects to merge will be the seat itself, which cant be avoided. The isolation methods used are to enhance the tactile as much as possible but also help contain the vibrations from the floor.

 

[anton_Chez]

Man I hope it's what you're expecting it to be. You've sunk a tonne of energy into this thing.

 

[Mr Latte]

Man I hope it's what you're expecting it to be. You've sunk a tonne of energy into this thing.

It's certainly grown to something much more than expected and then some..

My isoIator solution/materials, cost more than a full P1 rig, thats how excessive it is. Though it needs to be with the tactile that the rig will use. I also had to reconsider and find a better design of how the isolation was displaced and applied over the rig to suit a future adaption of SFX motion. I didn't want that much additional tilt applied from the isolators but believe I can add an 8020 frame section to support and be bolted to this inner frame steel/chrome tubing section specially built for the tactile.

 

[Mr Latte]

Went ahead and ordered 2x
Dayton DAEX-32EP-4

I am curious to see which works out best.
So will do tests to compare this against others below:

Dayton:
DAEX32U-4
HDN8
PUC 8ohm

Monacor:
AR-50

 

[cap7ainclu7ch]

Sorry if this has been asked already but does anyone have experience with the ShakeBox elite setup from SRS? I'm looking to get into tactile and want to do it in a way where I won't be limited in the future, but like the plug and play nature of what SRS offers. I've been eyeing the standard ShakeKit for awhile but seems like the elite setup that includes the back and pedal shakers might be worth the additional price.

 

[millen]

Hey guys, just looking at finally getting my shake on...

Going to try and do the good old Parts Express Cheap Build from the iRacing forums.
Got all my stuff in the cart, as in attached picture.... yes delivery costs a lot.
... Anything else I should consider or add.

Will be attaching to my Pine and MDF setup, and will isolate my pedals from rest of seat with some rubber feet/washers etc.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hey guys, just looking at finally getting my shake on...

Going to try and do the good old Parts Express Cheap Build from the iRacing forums.
Got all my stuff in the cart, as in attached picture.... yes delivery costs a lot.
... Anything else I should consider or add.

Will be attaching to my Pine and MDF setup, and will isolate my pedals from rest of seat with some rubber feet/washers etc.

Heard reports the BST-1 wasn't that great but not tried personally.
I would go with 2x ADX for now or just spend a bit more and go with 4 of those as it is a proven budget unit that pleases most people that buy it.

It's hard to find a cheaper 4x amp for that kind of money.

Of course nothing stopping you buying 1x BST, 1x ADX to compare for yourself and then decide which to buy 4 of.

 

[boern69]

I tested a lot meanwhile with my 4 wheel chassis setup

fame 4 channel amp 219€
onboard sound 7.1 0€
4x sinus bs 250 100€
shake it donator 3€

I think its less the price of the parts but much more
the form of the rig -> to get a clear seperated feedback

+
The less ur seat is upholstered the better is the feeling

+
take ur time with the shake it setup

+
if u wanna spend more money
take another 4 shakers and a second 4 ch amp

 

[nolive721]

just finished my install last night and started testing this morning japan time

I posted on the SIMHUB thread since I am using Shakit Bass shaker to control output but if someone could guide me at how to improve the initial)good though) experience, it would be great

thanks so much

Olivier

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/simhub-diy-sim-racing-dash.121578/page-288#post-2938927

 

[Mr Latte]

While I await delivery of additional tactile/exciter units I purchased to compare and examine. With more being purchased soon. I wanted to do a quick comparison with the popular and affordable Dayton Puc. Seems lots of people have these and over the years I have certainly seen a lot of people purchase it as an ideal choice to get into tactile.

What I cannot find is user feedback on these "exciters" for sim immersion purposes. Many examples of using them as speakers but not for sim tactile immersion. So for my own build, while I look at these "exciters" as options to enhance engine RPM, for the purpose of making it feel more exciting. I think its only right that I go out of my way to consider how good these may be for those seeking to get into tactile immersion on a budget. Besides, I like a bit of adventure and I'm quite curious to see what can be discovered.

Upcoming in 1-2 months (slowly getting my new rig built) will be a more detailed report on comparing several affordable units. I have to say some of these units are really surprising me how well they are working for the little money they cost but it seems (even with basic tests) certain models are better than others.


Todays Testing Adventure

Dayton Puc = Seat Shoulder
Dayton Exciter DAEX32U-4 = Seat Side

General Frequency Range Used
30-200Hz

Test Subject:
Music / Nigel Stanford / Automatica Album

Headphones:
Phillips Fidelio X2

Using music I am familiar with to best determine the response each unit has as well as doing tests with set frequency ranges. With music, it's easy to repeat parts of tracks for A/B comparisons. Also unlike telemetry, it's not constantly changing based on various factors or user inputs.

Initial Setup:
First I used 40Hz - 50Hz crossover on both to get similar volume outputs as these are common peak frequencies. With one unit being 4ohm and the other 8ohm I had the amp properly configured for this with digital wattage limiters set to each units specifications, then adjusted the gain to balance each channel in that they felt similar volume.


An additional gain of 2-3 dB was added to the channel for the Dayton Puc to help approximately balance each.

It seems impossible to get an official operating chart for the Dayton Puc to compare with other units. Some of which I posted a page or so back. Therefore just relying on 1-1 comparisons of each unit. Keep in mind this is just a fun but not over in-depth test as later more can be done in future tests with more preparation and source material.

Here is what I considered doing as individual frequency range tests before doing a final test with the pre-decided general 30-200Hz frequency range.

• 30Hz - 50Hz
• 50Hz - 80Hz
• 80Hz - 120Hz
• 120Hz - 200Hz

More to follow later....

 

[nolive721]

thanks for answering my comments in the Simhub.

I am curious about what you will find out in regards to these DAYTONAUDIO pucs considering I am already impressed by what 2 units can deliver with Simhub software driving the tactile effects by zone/type.
Talking about software solution, as you mentioned this, I can see that evolutions of VOICEMEETER are available like the Banana and Potato variants.

is that the type of software you are looking into?

VOICEMEETER standard has allowed me to output Game audio from my TV and tactile efefcts from the pucs as I advised in my post and there are some audio adjustments available in there but I can only see spatialization or gain, no frequency tweaking unless I miss that