Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[nolive721]

was thinking while typing my message. could be that Simhub works better with MME audio drivers?

my meaning is that I have set effects to operate at low frequencies so it actually works while the motherboard audio is on these old drivers but not so if on more recent WDM ones?

will drop a note to Wotever in the Simhub thread to have his views

 

[asteroulis]

WDM is the way to go. Other settings are to reduce latency, and also VM has EQ that you can use for your LPF. Sorry no time to write more here but maybe later I give more info. Try googling "reducing voicemeeter latency" or somtlething like that. I remember finding my way through that process.

 

[Mr Latte]

FWIW I'm not trying to change your design or aesthetics. If you have a plan that you like go for it. I have only 4 channels and for now I'm perfectly content.

My solution is very primitive compared with what you are doing so my needs are by definition different.

I'm happy to see what others want or are doing, so its good to see you sharing.
Likewise, If sharing my own its simply that as I am not trying to get you or others to change.

Its also good to see people interested in these exciters and willing to give them a try. Also to work together to get around the issues for "crossover control" and mixing "audio-tactile".

Hardware options are also possible but it's going to be more expensive. It may get around issues of drivers/latency and have its own benefits. While some of you continue to look into or share software options. I can showcase different options in hardware as what are additional ways to achieve good mixing and crossover control.

APO 1.2 is rather special as it can apply the CO/EQ at the soundcard stage for each channel how we want it. The "Dual Output" of primary audio and mixing is more the problem to overcome.

 

[nolive721]

WDM is the way to go. Other settings are to reduce latency, and also VM has EQ that you can use for your LPF. Sorry no time to write more here but maybe later I give more info. Try googling "reducing voicemeeter latency" or somtlething like that. I remember finding my way through that process.

yes that is definitively a better tactile output I am getting with the WDM drivers but then the DAYTON pucs output the Game audio
I will give MrLatte tutorial a shot tonight and as I mentioned, will contact wotever to hear his thoughts at the telemetry capture software level
thanks for your input already, much appreciated
PS you are using VM Banana right to have the possibility to EQ? not the standard VM software?

 

[asteroulis]

yes that is definitively a better tactile output I am getting with the WDM drivers but then the DAYTON pucs output the Game audio
I will give MrLatte tutorial a shot tonight and as I mentioned, will contact wotever to hear his thoughts at the telemetry capture software level
thanks for your input already, much appreciated
PS you are using VM Banana right to have the possibility to EQ? not the standard VM software?

I use VMB ibstead of VM because it simply is more sophisticated, has more inputs/outputs and it seemed like the obvious choice back when I started. I would like to have even more channels to play with to be honest, but does the job just fine.
Seems to me like MME cutting high frequencies is a bug and shouldn't bother you anyway since it's outdated. For audio tactile you should seek a proper LPF to apply, whether hardware based or software based.

 

[nolive721]

I use VMB ibstead of VM because it simply is more sophisticated, has more inputs/outputs and it seemed like the obvious choice back when I started. I would like to have even more channels to play with to be honest, but does the job just fine.
Seems to me like MME cutting high frequencies is a bug and shouldn't bother you anyway since it's outdated. For audio tactile you should seek a proper LPF to apply, whether hardware based or software based.

thank you for pushing me to insist with VM. I have installed the Banana version, started from scratch and result!

I have now the Game Audio working off my TV and the tactile output through my bass shakers and that is only in the low frequencies I wanted it to be

Using the WDM so getting a clear sound and tactile feeling and since there are a few pre-sets that come handy with the software,I am using the one below to run my set-up.working like a charm


now its almost midnight over here in Japan, off to bed before more tuning also with Simhub but tomorrow

@MrLatte
pretty sure that I could have achieved the same with APO EQ software solution,its just that I was so used to VM that I didnt want to give up.
so thanks also for having guided me towards a fix to my problem

I have 2 more DAYTON pucs laying around so I will certainly need advice with placement and further HW set-up

How people in Simracing can ignore this added tactile immersion opportunity, they really dont know what they miss!

 

[nolive721]

for whatever reason the screenshot didn't go through, trying again

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes I think we need more time looking into these software options and what the pros/cons are.
Also how we can combine them if needed. It doesn't matter to me what people find work best for them, be it VMB or something else.

Ive not used VMB for some time as I only looked into it before going the hardware route. I preferred the hardware approach and the extra abilities/options it gave me for my own, extreme rig configuration.

For others, I still seek to work with you guys to discover what is the simplest way (via software) to achieve CO/EQ and MIXING options.

My queries are:
If VMB fixes the latency issues that's great but can we then also use APO 1.2 with VMB?

Does VMB support "PARAMETRIC EQ " and allow independent CO/EQ for each channel? As that is the main appeal for using APO 1.2

Looks like we can install APO to work with A1 A2 A3 VMB or select more than one device.
So would be good to have those of you that are familiar with VMB to try and look deeper into APO1.2 as well.

 

[asteroulis]

The EQ option of VMB is what you see above, in nolive721's post. Does the job. You can EQ every channel individually if you want,yes.
I know for sure that EqAPO is more capable, but I am not convinced it is needed to be honest.

 

[Mr Latte]

The EQ option of VMB is what you see above, in nolive721's post. Does the job. You can EQ every channel individually if you want,yes.
I know for sure that EqAPO is more capable, but I am not convinced it is needed to be honest.

Yes, true that such is perhaps not needed by everyone. It would be, more useful if people have very different tactile units being used. They may then want specific EQ for those units. Or if they are using certain channels for specific effect roles again they may want to have individual settings for these than just one setting for all units or channels.

I raised this point with the new Shakeit Beta that although it offered a Crossover, currently it is applied to all channels being used. This isn't ideal...

For instance, in my case (via hardware) while I can set CO/EQ via each iNuke DSP amp, I also can determine the audio/tactile mix balance per single channel (or have it off totally). What I am keen to see is what we can achieve with these software solutions for basic and simple configurations but also configurations that start using certain units or channels for specific effects distribution.

Shakeit can easily support multiple cards, We are not limited to how Simvibe or SSW operate. I can see a way of using 8 main channels for the rig and another 6 for exciters, combining a 7.1 and 5.1 soundcard for Shakeit. Having the same CO/EQ for these going to very different tactile models and varying effects usage just would not work.

Once configured it would not, however, need constant alteration or re-tweaking.

 

[Mr Latte]

With some further playing around with APO 1.2
Here is an example of selecting a hardware device, choosing what channel to apply the settings on. Then adding various controls for these channels and device.

These could be applied for individual devices or channels from what I can see.

• Select Device
• Select Channels
• Pre-amp Gain (balance devices output level)
• Delay
• EQ (select which type you want)
• Crossover Control

My rig is totally dismantled and I'm about to start ripping out all my hardware as reconfiguring room for the new cockpit build to begin soon.

So feel free to look more into these options or share how you are getting on with VMB or whatever.
Im interested to know how well we can manage CO/EQ & Mixing with software.

APO1.2 does not seem to have mixing options.
Id like to know what the limitations are with VMB

I just don't have the time to look deeply into both.

 

[nolive721]

I think if you go into chnage device Option, you can create the Mixing input you are after?

Or I am not understanding your concern maybe sorry

From my side, I have started to look into latency as advised by asteroulis but because now my set-up works with WDM I would see VMB is not too bad as shown below to play with SR, buffer etc
and quite user friendly, a bit more than APO I would say

limitations at 1st glance is how many HW output I can select since I have A1 and A2 hooked up and I am planning to add another amp but then after that, kind of cant see extra slots if I want to go more extreme meaning I would need to invest in a more multichannel type of Amp ($$$)

on that addition of Amp I am talking about, I am planning to drive 2 more DAYTON pucs but my motherboard Lineout is already occupied by the LEPAY amp+2 DAYTON pcus I have set.

Would another cheap amp with USB input work?
something like this https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B078R3CYSS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

seems to be a knock off from the Nobsound version

that way or I am also thinking to set my Realtek Audio as proper 7.1 channel output and use the other audio jack on my motherboard to capture another bunch of telemetry input data

as always, advice greatly appreciated

 

[Mr Latte]

@nolive721

I am a bit confused and need more understanding with the driver issues you guys are referring too. The low-performance factor you had. Is it perhaps related to old Realtek Drivers? I have not yet done a full quality test with my own hardware and APO 1.2 or with different soundcards I own.

What I can say is that APO 1.2 is made for audiophiles that use quite expensive microphones to analyse their room acoustics and then use the CO/EQ features to configure their audio accordingly. So I wouldn't expect it to be limited to low-quality output.

It is unlikely that many people have used it for the purpose we can use it for.

Mixing Channels Or Units:
Controls we need for mixing are simple, altering for the output going to the amp, how loud the "audio is" to the "Shakeit" effects. We find a balance (may need altered with different titles). What I don't recommend is adding audio to a unit that already is being given multiple tactile effects to generate. I will cover this at a later time but as mentioned before, we are best to limit the effects for any channels we want to have a "mix" or we can just have "audio tactile only" installed units be combined with "Shakeit" only installed units. This way the mix will happen in the seat/rig or installed surface materials by themselves.

PC Audio Mess
What I can't see anywhere is someone that has inspected and compared 2.0 channel audio in racing sims with the 5.1 or 7.1 output options. What I do know is that PC titles are not always the best at utilising properly multichannel audio.

With my tests on my old rig I had the ability to mix Stereo L/R audio over any channel. Or I could mix 5.1 audio over a 6 channel tactile config. I have seen somethings that lead me to believe we are best to just use 2 channel audio for mixing instead of 6 channel.

Ideally, from the "audio mix" for tactile, we want L/R positional stereo effects and the engine or other audible characteristics found with each car. So we want full range bass. We don't really need .1 bass channel or surround channels as I have seen instances of problems with these. I can't confirm yet if it was related to my Omni soundcard as it needs further investigation/testing.


Smaller & Better


I strongly advise removing/selling your Pucs and get the "DAEX32U" that are being recommended.
Have spent hours comparing them. Folks if you have enjoyed and already own Pucs, then these are an upgrade, thats all I can say.

These "exciters" certainly for me, have performed much better, are more compact, easy to power and are not expensive to buy. It would also be advisable to anyone with a GS4/GS5 wanting to add tactile to their panels. While their seat panels are pre-configured for Dayton Pucs the "DAEX32U" can very easily be stuck on. I see excellent potential in adding these as they will deliver superb energy direct to specific body regions. The user then determines what effects they want to be positioned to whatever units. Shakeit makes this much more simple than Simvibe.

Panel Installations



Amps
The Nobsound amps are compared in several Youtube videos to other cheap units like Lepai etc. I have linked a guys video/channel in the past here. Most videos I have watched give them credible reviews. I opted for the newest N20 model while it has more wattage, I liked its LED readout for easy volume setting and will be considering using 3 of them for the 6x exciters for my seat. I wont be buying 3x DSP amps to power these so need a solution for them and control their CO/EQ.

You dont necessarily need multichannel amps with these Nobsound models being so tiny. Also they may cost more money and have as illustrated less watts in output. In my case I could of used an old 7.1 AV Reciever but its huge in comparison with similar wattages. Other solutions like d.i.y amps to me are not really worth the hassle, unless you are a hobbyist that likes building things. So really each to their own preferences.


Pushing The Boundaries Or Insanity?
With the discovery of these exciters. My own, new seat/section build is going to be using an advanced array of 16 units. While this sounds perhaps just a tad crazy it will be combining all the things I have learned to deliver a very controlled and high performance.

• Dual & Triple Role Unit Installations
• Units for Specific Effects Roles
• Body Region Utilisation
• Audio & Telemetry Tactile Mix For Greater Immersion

Note: I have been buying/accumulating tactile units for over 13 years and many of my units were purchased at special prices/ebay as not all were new. What this insane combination brings will be what was learned in discovering what/how different units performances vary for specific roles or frequency output.

The strongest low Hz output over several units. With very detailed mid-frequency range and with the newest addition in the exciters adding specific effects highlighting and positioning. The question is how does someone get this much tactile installed onto a seat section and it all work together? It needs a lot of testing and creative ideas to find working solutions.


Seat Only - Tactile Components

 

[RCHeliguy]

Wow! 13 years! I'm impressed!

Other than some sports, I've never had a hobby keep my interest for more than 5 years.

 

[Mr Latte]

Wow! 13 years! I'm impressed!

Other than some sports, I've never had a hobby keep my interest for more than 5 years.

Oh man, the adventure of my own "cockpit build" goes waay back to the days of GT Planet. When GT5 was an inspiration for building an advanced tactile cockpit. Its a story full of moments of elation, discovery, adventure, debate, setbacks, depression, dispair, tears, financial issues, health, rest, recovery, renewed passion, technical advances, learning, crazy ideas and patience. It's like the cockpit is unfinished business as a personal goal and something that never got done but stayed alive and kept growing.

Setbacks in life happen, I was fortunate enough to be able to hold onto some of my tactile toys. Yet had to sell loads of other sim hardware I had purchased at the time. So once again, "The Dream Rig", which differs for us all is for me again, becoming a reality but I still have a long way to go in purchasing new hardware as well.

If any of it helps or inspires others thats a good thing.

 

[RCHeliguy]

FYI, my 8 x 14awg speaker cable arrived yesterday and since what I have with 4 pairs of speaker cables in F6 sheathing works well, I leave it be for now. I may feel like I "should" use it since I paid for it, but I don't see an advantage to using a single 8 wire cable. In fact I can see that having the individual cable pairs is much more flexible if I change anything in the future. For example if I decided to add a high powered amp to push a couple channels, I could undo two speaker cables and replace them with something longer or even upgrade it individually to 12awg.

 

[nolive721]

@Mr Latte

I was referring to WDM vs MME.for whatever reasons VM was only outputting MME and these old MME drivers are known for bad latency.On top of that, the effect was very muddy.

Anyway, VMB version has fixed most of that and starting from scratch also participated for me to untangle some of the issues I was experiencing

I hear you about the DAYTON pucs, but the way I have modded my PLAYSEAT I woudl have to disassemble quite few things to access them, unmount and replace the 2 units.

Might be doing that down the road but right now,I am more brainstorming how and where to mount the 2 extra I have laying around without messing up my white seat.

and as mentioned in my previous post, how to drive them. I am leaning towards a simple Nobsound or alike 2Ch amp

and by the way, what you are doing for this thread is just amazing, full respect to you and your thinking

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay sorry with the confusion....
I will test the little N20 later today...

 

[wajdi]

Oh man, the adventure of my own "cockpit build" goes waay back to the days of GT Planet. When GT5 was an inspiration for building an advanced tactile cockpit. Its a story full of moments of elation, discovery, adventure, debate, setbacks, depression, dispair, tears, financial issues, health, rest, recovery, renewed passion, technical advances, learning, crazy ideas and patience. It's like the cockpit is unfinished business as a personal goal and something that never got done but stayed alive and kept growing.

Setbacks in life happen, I was fortunate enough to be able to hold onto some of my tactile toys. Yet had to sell loads of other sim hardware I had purchased at the time. So once again, "The Dream Rig", which differs for us all is for me again, becoming a reality but I still have a long way to go in purchasing new hardware as well.

If any of it helps or inspires others thats a good thing.

I remember your days in gtplanet since 2010. What did happen to your original cockpit project?
.

 

[Mr Latte]

I remember your days in gtplanet since 2010. What did happen to your original cockpit project?
.

I had to close the business in 2013 and it was a room at those premises I used for the rig build. It's only the last 2 years or so things have been getting back to normality and I started thinking about rekindling that interest.