Tactile Immersion - P1-X - BK-CT LFE & TST

[Dadz]

Hi all,

I open this thread, to share my project, and have the maximum amount of advice from the community.
I will equip the bucket seat and the pedals;
But for now, I'm going to focus on the bucket seat.

The bass shaker used will be:

Behind the seat: 8 x Dayton DAEX32EP-4 (stereo)
Under the seat: 2x Buttkicker Concert (Large) (Mono)
seat side: Buttkicker LFE (Large) (Stereo)
And why not TST 329 Gold (Stereo).

Sound card: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 (Apparently you can only use the equalizer for instrument outputs) I have to go to the specialist store for advice, as I have seen this reference from other TASCAM US- 16X08.

The amps will be Behringer DSP for BK and TST, for Dayton it will be 4 Behringer channels.


The most important thing for me right now is to have excellent vibration conduction in the bucket seat.

To cut the vibrations, I chose this: RSM406-45
[URL unfurl = "true"] https://www.avindustrialproducts.co.uk/files/ww/47. Rectangular Sandwich Mountings.pdf [/ URL]

Thank you [USER = 242956] @Mr Latte [/ USER] for the link

They will be placed below, in the red zone (see photo).




I drew on Solidworks 2 plates that would support the BK. It is a first solution.

yellow legend: Central plate, will be fixed on the lateral supports.
Blue Legend: side plate for BK-LFE, which will be fixed under the bucket seat support and placed outside.


I still don't know how to put the TST329G
All suggestions are obviously welcome.

Dadz

 

[Dadz]

I just made a new version (V2) of the BK-CT deck. I removed material to better direct the vibrations of each unit.


@Mr Latte, for anti vibration blocks, do you know if the blocks that accept more weight are preferable for our use?

 

[Mr Latte]

Hey nice to see you start a thread on this exciting build...

Let me first say (due to recent drama) if I make or give advice or recommendations, let's be clear, it is your own decision what to do and go with for your own build. What I have gone with on my own build or found to work may not necessarily be what suits your own preferences or how you want to incorporate or use the tactile you have ready to install.

So if I show or discuss things I found via various testing over the years that may work well, even if they do work well you do not have to assume I expect you to go with the same ideas. You are also more than welcome to take someone else's advice over mine or ignore mine on any recommendations given. I do not have any issues with this at all.

My own hope here, is that you can get the help you need to make informed decisions and that others looking at similar ways of installing possibly large BK or the exciters can use this thread for not just inspiration but general interest on your own journey.


Seat
In progressing, can you upload images of your seat and where you may want to place the 8x (Quad Stereo) exciters?

Effects & Immersion
What effects have you in mind to use with this installation and how? Not expecting you here to give a full run-down but just, in general, trying to determine what you are seeking to extract from this regards effects immersion? Would you have a preference in effects you deem as more important to you or more enjoyable or just not certain yet?

Extensive Build
What you are planning to do here is quite extensive, no question so with that I would like to clarify these points and also to query if vibrations will be an issue to other rooms/floors or are you on concrete?

Isolation Challenges / Preferences
The seat is going to be very heavy, so you may be best with firm mounts. If going with 4, I believe the 200kg may be better (max load ratings). A concern I would raise is that as these are not that wide you might get some side/tilt when transferring your body weight.

For me I found having softer supports but more of them was nicer for the seat. In my testing it was even possible to feel a slight but noticeable sensation of heave from large impacts with the large BK units. The softer initial rebound may of been a reason for that.

I used these EVA Antivibration Pad as part of my own solution (while it is very different) but I think you could apply/cut these to test having the 200Kg isolators but with this as a top softer layer. These are squishy but not that soft neither although it would be worth trying with/without to help you determine what you prefer. You may find those on Amazon or Ebay.

You have spent quite a bit on the tactile hardware, so I think the seat needs some consideration to do this part well. To get it right that you are happy with it and test it under braking forces etc. I can show other materials I recommend too, that can help with preventing possible pinging or reverberation into the alu. I am not sure if you will have any issues with TST and the Exciters when they are outputtting the harmonics (more audible frequencies) but is it something I thought with this installation may be worth discussing.

 

[Mr Latte]

Buttkicker Plates
Regards the current plans for installing the units, lets confirm what effects you want to use or enjoy most as to what is potentially the best way to install these. It will also help others reading this to grasp more what you seek to do with the builds tactile.

Performance Issue
I would recommend that you do not use a singular square type plate as it will ruin the stereo. This plate (as shown) will connect/bridge the individual stereo plates as well making the rig more like mono due to the energy of each transferring between the (blue/yellow) (top/bottom) sections having contact with each other.

We can discuss this further on possible solution but clearly, with the level of hardware being used here I presume that achieving optimal performance, rather than cutting corners to save a little money is preferred/acceptable?

Can you also confirm if this rig will be stationary or using at some point motion?
Knowing this will help with recommendations for installing.

Advanced Audio Hardware
The 18i20 what gen is it and how have you been trying to use it, what do you want to do with it?
I have a (gen1) 18i8 Focusrite I used with PC and more recently with iPad Pro but also purchased a Behringer X18 for more channels and wireless control over wifi.

You should be able to use the 18i8 to monitor the bass activity and frequencies each channel is outputting as a professional tool and one that is very cool for learning with increased understanding towards creating good effects. Whatever effects are active on a channel from your soundcard you then see what is going to the tactile units used. You can monitor single effects or see how the output looks when multiple effects are active. If you noticed particular peaks with certain frequencies then this can be adressed in the Hz used for offending effects settings or by using EQ to control those peaks. Ideally it can let you configure your installation and how it operates to a more calibrated preference.

Your units also supports 8 channel outputs so in theory you could do EQ/Crossover and all other methods of audio control within DAW software or specialits apps. It's no different than musicians or bands use. The only difference is instead of us using multiple mics or instruments we are using multiple channels offering different bass activity.

 

[Dadz]

Hi,

Effects & Immersion

RPM
Gear Shift

Road Vibration (would this be the bump effect?)
Road Impacts (would this be the bump effect?)

G-Force Acceleration
G-Force Deceleration

Simulated Road Texture (I don't see the difference with road Vibration and Road Impacts)

Wheel Slip (Rear Wheels)
Wheel Lock (Rear Wheels)

Here is the list of effects I would like to use. I follow my experiance when I just had my Subpac V2.
I couldn't put them all on at the same time, but just by myself, the feeling was appreciable.


Seat

8 x Dayton DAEX32EP-4 (Quad Stereo)

It's almost ready, the exact positioning will be done in direct test.
Basically I wanted to position 2 under the thighs, but I do not think I can with my BK-CT plate.
The placement would be as follows:




Extensive Build

At present, the simulator is placed in my living room on the ground floor, on a concrete slab with tiling. I still want to make sure that there is no emanation of vibration.


Isolation Challenges / Preferences

I chose this reference precisely because the width is 40mm and corresponds to the width of the ALUI profile on which it will rest. So I do not think there is a problem, a greater width may tend to better stability, but I am not sure, and from an aesthetic point of view, that does not suit me.

Ok, so I'm going to go on 4 units of 200 Kg.

The idea of a top layer also came to my mind. That said, I have a constraint, I cannot raise my seat more than 60mm; because my flying support will come out of the ALU profile.

anti vibration sandwich thickness: 36mm
theoretical thickness of BK-LFE side plate: 5mm

I would have 19 mm left for a second layer of insulator. I could add a second layer of EVA Anti-Vibration Pad, just below the side seat supports. (20mm)

Equipment

I have not bought anything yet regarding the TST Buttkicker Sound card etc ... It won't be long, I will start with the big BK units.

I chose the BK and TST and Dayton units, after reading the 90 pages of the Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software thread. The sound card, I have a Focusrite 6i6 version currently, and I'm very happy with it, so I told myself that staying on the same brand would be a guarantee of quality and performance. But I'm not sure I can run the Dayton's equalizer.


Performance Issue

In all cases that I will not be able to finance everything at once, I will therefore have to spread out, but I want to try to do this as best I can.

The platform will be dynamic, with SFX100 modifiers, to have an output length of 150mm.

Advanced Audio Hardware

@Mr Latte , My knowledge of audio equipment is basic. And being enlightened on these points would make my job easier.
The fact of using the iPad from what I understand centralizes everything, but what is it used for?

Once our settings are done on SimHub and different devices, do you need to have anything other than a basic connection, speaker -> Amplifier -> Preamp -> Sound card -> SimHub?


Ender Seat

I just made a new version of the support which will host the 2 BK-CT.
This time, the vibrations will be led directly under the seat.


Legend red: Support location



A 2nd version:

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay good to get an idea what effects you may prefer but what you will find is some effects not listed will also be really good for immersion. The great thing with Shakeit is the ability to easily test different effects combinations or have whatever effects you want operating.

One of the effects pleasing me at the moment I am developing is the combination of a new speed-based effect and new lateral G sensation.


Can you confirm the hardware you do have NOW, and then also what you are planning to possibly use.

Here is an example of what I would propose considering for the installation based on what you have decided to use. The Dual Concerts can be on their own metal section bolted and with some mild isolation to the underside of the seat. We place this centrally but it has no connection point to the sides. All its energy will go into the underside of the seat from the center.

We maintain mono effects on these and separate speed from rpm to each unit. Other effects like impacts can go to both central units. How we use "suspension bumps" to "impacts" is that the bumps are suspension based (so directional) per wheel. I build very strong low bass responses for impacts to suit scenarios like the car bottoming/dipping and collisions and this then lets us feel wheel bumps from impacts individually.

Having BK LFE & TST combine together brings the best detailing and low bass. This "Dual Role" approach for an effect like bumps lets us place "large" bumps to the BK LFE and "medium" bumps to the TST with the additional stereo position of small bumps to the exciters in the back of the seat. This will need another bracket but I will go into more detail on this if its the path you like, it certainly is the path I choose on my own build for the performance it brings. The TST would be on a separate plate but below the BK LFE and as one is inverted we then switch the phase on that unit so we then avoid any frequency cancellation in a scenario of both units using the same Hz at the same time. I see rigs with some units installed upright and others inverted, we need to address this with the phase so all are in sync.

BK & TST Dual Role Combo
This really brings superb stereo sensations and also delivers the much nicer range to how different bumps will vary in their feel for small, medium and large bump activity. It's not just one effect for all 3 types of bump response like most people will have and only then output strength being used to differ small, medium and large bumps.

Then building effect to better utilise it, like below. Small effects will bring very fast and mini feedback for saw kerbs, medium bumps have a nice roundness to their feel and large bumps have deeper punch. So corners like the 1st corner at SPA which has different types of curbing you feel not just one sensation but different responses based on the telemetry output for each surface response.

We take, not just the power but the detail and the effects range to the next level with this type of installation and custom made high quality effects.

 

[Mr Latte]

Here is one of many builds I tried in the last 2 years.


What was learned was how important it is to be able to control where the tactile goes as even this example had many flaws, letting the energy from the TST units flow in other directions easily. Nothing prevented the energy going down into the base of the rig.

Yet I also attempted ways of trying to get the energy to specific areas via the steel/chrome tubing I have.
So after mistakes and learning it helped me improve how my own build could direct the tactile into the seat when using multiple units.



Trial and error brings about learning and discovering what works or does not work so well. I can only help to offer some experience from that. You may want to just go with your initial or preferred plan whatever that may be or to test more than one option. That depends on your own approach.

What can be done is to take energy from the central concert units to go to the central spine/back region.
You may not need the (white exciters) you showed in image. Potentially run with 3x stereo pair and have energy from the BK instead of having 2 additional exciters in mono at the back of the seat.


From a more recent build you can see that from my own testing I try out exactly what I recommend based on previous builds and findings. Here you see how a TST and LFE will be used for Dual Role for each side of the seat and testing of the central dual BK Concerts which was a bit of uncertainty how well they would work prior to testing.

For me at the moment I have been testing effects with the dual BK concert on the seat and it works really well. Its not hard to extend a section of tubing or in your case 8020 that could feed direct energy from these into the back to then help compliment their energy that already goes into the seat underneath.

Its being creative
You, however, may want to do something completely different, so these are just for inspiration and consideration.

 

[Dadz]

Okay, I understand the principles for effects.

In terms of hardware, you could say that I have 2 BK-CT units, 2 BK-LFE and 2 TST.

I should have made one as you did, it's more telling . And that's exactly what I have in mind. And I had not yet talked about it, but I intended to put an additional section to send them to the harness.

Ok, the bottom of my seat has an angle, that's why I added a plate, to come and marry it perfectly. Now tell me about it, I see how to simplify it. What isolatiowould you put there?



I'm going to think about how to position the TST on the LFE support.

The TST would be on a separate plate but below the BK LFE and as one is inverted we then switch the phase on that unit so we then avoid any frequency cancellation in a scenario of both units using the same Hz at the same time. I see rigs with some units installed upright and others inverted, we need to address this with the phase so all are in sync.

I understand the principle, and it's super important to know it. Is it on the amp that we reverse the phase?

 

[Dadz]

I really like your approach of bringing the vibrations of the BK-CT to the seat back.
And yes it is sure that Dayton Blanc, would no longer be used.

The starting point of the vibrations of the TST, can be put in relation with the LFE? or is that a problem?

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay, I understand the principles for effects.

In terms of hardware, you could say that I have 2 BK-CT units, 2 BK-LFE and 2 TST.

I should have made one as you did, it's more telling . And that's exactly what I have in mind. And I had not yet talked about it, but I intended to put an additional section to send them to the harness.

Ok, the bottom of my seat has an angle, that's why I added a plate, to come and marry it perfectly. Now tell me about it, I see how to simplify it. What isolatiowould you put there?



I'm going to think about how to position the TST on the LFE support.


I understand the principle, and it's super important to know it. Is it on the amp that we reverse the phase?

Yes easy done if wanting to switch the Phase 180 degrees on the NXD amps
Alternatively, a user wires the + to - and - to + for the unit that is inverted.
This way we have units pushing/pulling in sync and not one unit pushing when another is pulling.

 

[Mr Latte]

I really like your approach of bringing the vibrations of the BK-CT to the seat back.
And yes it is sure that Dayton Blanc, would no longer be used.

The starting point of the vibrations of the TST, can be put in relation with the LFE? or is that a problem?

Now thats a good question in how we combine both units.
To some extent, this will be a personal preference and based on the effects being used.

As you now technically have 2 units duplicating a channel you can do the following.

• Have exact same frequency response and no crossover to each (not ideal with these very different units)
• Use the BK LFE primarily for low bass role
• Use TST primarily for midrange and high range

So from Shakeit this is the same channel but we have different effect layers for small, medium and large bumps that if on the same channel would normally go to a single unit. So we then use a crossover control to limit the LFE to use only upto 30-40Hz from that channel. We then use the TST to use from @30Hz onwards.

This is something you can play around with but you may find a balance you like that lets you really drive the LFE hard but keep its response to below 30Hz to drive the full fat low bass only. A single unit cannot achieve this in bringing the bass and detail and is why "Dual Role" works very well with fast pace effects like bumps and delivers greater depth and detail from them over any single unit can.

When you combine effects like "Lateral G" with "Bumps" which can both very active. So again with 2 units outputting what the channel activity is, they just cope much better than a single unit can.

We never see quality hifi or professional speakers using a single driver to reproduce ultra-low bass and mid-range bass. This is the same approach in tactile.

You could, of course, use the TST as an individual channel with its own effects but then those effects are limited to the performance of that unit. So you see with combining the performance abilities of two specific units we then gain better performance from all the effects we place on that channel.

You will likely want to do your own experimenting anyways.

 

[Dadz]

This is what I had read in part on your old post, that the LFE and the TST complemented each other well. That's why I wanted to follow this way of doing things.

And you know, I can tell the difference between thinking for yourself, and saving time with the efforts of people who have worked on the issue in depth. I think I'm sure to go in the right direction . So don't worry

 

[Mr Latte]

We need to look at a method to fit the gap between the seat underside and the seat risers.
There may have an angle depending on the installation and shape of the seat.

For attaching between the metal plate used for the seat and central Concerts some of this should be good.
It comes in various depths and see the chart for frequencies. This layer is mainly to help prevent noise, it will not affect the low frequencies of the unit going into the seat.

Here is the size I went for but I will use quite a lot of it as part of a 3way layer for my isolation towers.
It is a must for my build to vastly reduce the vibrations as upstaris and with wooden floor.

 

[Mr Latte]

Another point that you mentioned, but why do you not consider increasing the gap slightly between horizontal sections (centre/back) and dropping the 8020 seat supports then used down a couple of inch with support from corner brackets. Rather than the seat 8020 supports sitting on top of the main frame.

* Although this would require a new way to attach the TST and possibly vertical.

 

[hazardpro]

Just been reading through this post and it looks awesome..... But ever get that 'this is whey over my head' feeling lol - Im lost

Ill still be following it though!

 

[JohnRule]

How do you intend to affix the Dayton exciters to the rear of your seat?

 

[Mr Latte]

The exciters come with 3M VHB (very high bond) sticky backs.
More can be bought from Amazon etc if ever needed but they hold really well. Only if taking them off to try to reposition after a couple of goes they may need new/fresh VHB.

The exciters are lightweight and small. The model I ended up preferring, offered good performance and was also, slimmer with being more robust in its build to some others. Connections can be crimped or soldered, care is needed with these as they could be easily damaged if cables are tugged hard.

Very easy to install and position on a seat. I would say 4-6 is optimal for the back of a seat or back/sides as shown below. This is not to say they cannot also be incorporated in pedals but I would focus on a seat first.




Shown here with a recommended 4 channel amp that has Balanced XLR inputs with individual volume controls and LED meters. The additional fans are to replace noisy stock fans.

Info about using "Balanced" cables/inputs over standard RCA or 3.5mm types

 

[Dadz]

Another point that you mentioned, but why do you not consider increasing the gap slightly between horizontal sections (centre/back) and dropping the 8020 seat supports then used down a couple of inch with support from corner brackets. Rather than the seat 8020 supports sitting on top of the main frame.

* Although this would require a new way to attach the TST and possibly vertical.

This a solution that I had not considered, it would save 40mm in height.

On the other hand the 2nd layer of anti vibration Type EVA would necessarily be on the anti vibration sandwich. I do not see how I could do otherwise.

Will this be as tough as the other? Not sure

For the TST this would most certainly require placing it vertically.

This solution seems less easy to implement, I may be wrong.


Edit: I just had a flash, an idea that stems from your idea, great, I measure everything, makes you say more.

 

[Dadz]

We need to look at a method to fit the gap between the seat underside and the seat risers.
There may have an angle depending on the installation and shape of the seat.

For attaching between the metal plate used for the seat and central Concerts some of this should be good.
It comes in various depths and see the chart for frequencies. This layer is mainly to help prevent noise, it will not affect the low frequencies of the unit going into the seat.

Here is the size I went for but I will use quite a lot of it as part of a 3way layer for my isolation towers.
It is a must for my build to vastly reduce the vibrations as upstaris and with wooden floor.

This layer of insulation is interesting. Yes the bottom of my seat has an angle, I would have a difference of 55mm between the top and the bottom.

Is it better to be filled with a thickness of steel and to finish with STP black Silver, or else omitted with STP? Finally the concert which would be below, would just require increasing its volume to compensate for this layer of insulation. Well the low bass are not retained.

 

[Mr Latte]

Central Concerts
Do consider that you will not need to cover the whole length of the seat for the central units. What may be a factor is the internal distance you have for bolting the metal section to the underside of the seat. If their is enough space to accommodate the holes for the units. If not then you may need to bolt a metal surface to the underside of the seat and then another surface to this for the length to cover the distance of the front/back central units mounting positions.

Now, I found its good to have a gap between the L/R units and the central units metal sections. So I would recommend that this metal central plate section is only as wide or as long as it needs to be. This will also help cut down the weight. Some noise/vibration dampening as shown and perhaps even a thin layer of neoprene rubber will help dampen any potenital piston pangs from the units. I would also seek to use rubber and metal washers.

For the central plate, 5mm steel or 8-10mm aluminum will work well.
Vibrations from the central units will easily flow all over the seat, likewise vibrations from a left mounted unit will be felt on the right hand side. We cannot prevent this but what is important is that we can determine and feel the side/placement the energy originates from or the side that it is stronger.

Maximising Installation
The recommendation of using the underside of the seat for the L/R will help boost the bass for directional placement. I have very nice feeling Lateral G for cornering as well as other effects we can use that make great usage of the stereo. When these are combined with the felt stereo in the back from the exciters it REALLY enhances the tactile immersion for positional effects. It is one factor that this approach greatly improves on over typical installations with only 2 units for the rear wheels installed.

It should blow you away in how good it feels with this combination of hardware as your whole torso is encapsulated with both very detailed positional stereo effects and the emotion the combination of deep/energy low-bass with the high detailing of the exciters brings to the complete felt sensation.

I am keen to see your own ideas on how to go about this installation.
Will offer to work on some diagrams if you want me to do this.

Do not rush this part of the build and if anything even consider trying more than one solution.
Its important to get the seat working well with that tactile but also the isolation and height of the seat just ideal.