Tactile Immersion - P1-X - BK-CT LFE & TST

[Dadz]

Hi all,

I open this thread, to share my project, and have the maximum amount of advice from the community.
I will equip the bucket seat and the pedals;
But for now, I'm going to focus on the bucket seat.

The bass shaker used will be:

Behind the seat: 8 x Dayton DAEX32EP-4 (stereo)
Under the seat: 2x Buttkicker Concert (Large) (Mono)
seat side: Buttkicker LFE (Large) (Stereo)
And why not TST 329 Gold (Stereo).

Sound card: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 (Apparently you can only use the equalizer for instrument outputs) I have to go to the specialist store for advice, as I have seen this reference from other TASCAM US- 16X08.

The amps will be Behringer DSP for BK and TST, for Dayton it will be 4 Behringer channels.


The most important thing for me right now is to have excellent vibration conduction in the bucket seat.

To cut the vibrations, I chose this: RSM406-45
[URL unfurl = "true"] https://www.avindustrialproducts.co.uk/files/ww/47. Rectangular Sandwich Mountings.pdf [/ URL]

Thank you [USER = 242956] @Mr Latte [/ USER] for the link

They will be placed below, in the red zone (see photo).




I drew on Solidworks 2 plates that would support the BK. It is a first solution.

yellow legend: Central plate, will be fixed on the lateral supports.
Blue Legend: side plate for BK-LFE, which will be fixed under the bucket seat support and placed outside.


I still don't know how to put the TST329G
All suggestions are obviously welcome.

Dadz

 

[Dadz]

I come back with a different version, based on the idea base of Mr Latte.

This new positioning offers the possibility of installing a superior sandwich insulator REF: (RSM322-45), and of offering better solidarity.

Legend Green: ALU profile 40x40
Legend Rouge: Sandwich Isolator
Legend Gray: ALU profile 40x40 and 160x40
Légende Vert et Noir: EVA Anti-Vibration Pad



LFE & TST

For the LFE, will be to my taste good to keep, I am thinking of a solution to place the TST there.

Central Concerts

Here is a photo which illustrates the size and position of the plate under the seat. It is moved as far back as possible. But I can't avoid this angle.



The plate is as small as possible, in Length, and in Width, I leave a space on each side to place 6 bolts in total.



I think that placing a steel plate on the underside of the seat to remove the angle, will provide better support. I will redo a 3D.

Yes the rubber washer is a good solution, I think to add it with steel washer.

Maximising Installation

The recommendation of using the underside of the seat for the L/R will help boost the bass for directional placement

I do not understand, you say that to maximize it would be necessary that the LFE unit can touch the left and right part of the underside of the seat?

Yes I am starting to understand the logic of conduction of the vibrations of each unit.

Thanks to STP, the noise and shake problem should not exist.

 

[Mr Latte]

Nice to see your updates, good work...

Query:
How do you add TST with the seat lowered into rig chassis.
Only space as they are 8" diameter may be having them vertical in the gap between the supports and central Concerts that hang down? These would then not need to touch the underside of the seat but may then dip below the depth of the 8020 frame.

Like I said for my own build this is a bit of a challenge to fit in with a good design and it work well.
Interested to see what else you come up with.

Best Stereo Energy
As your seat supports only connect to the actual seat by 2 bolts, then the vibrations of the LFE/TST are only making contact to the seat potentially at the side of the seat support and the bolts that attach it to the seat. This is why I recommend a solution to let the energy enter into the seat underneath as well.

This won't be that hard to do as you could have adjustable brackets to alter the height/angel underneath the seat. With small plate(s) that contact the seat underneath and have these also covered with some STP noise control materials.

Having the energy enter the side and under/side of the seat should (if it responds in a similar way my own did) will increase the dispersion of the directional effects. Really the intention is to increase the vibrational contact surface for more efficient delivery of the tactile for each side of the seat.

 

[Mr Latte]

Potential TST solution

Here is an image of my older seat from many years ago.
This was even before we had software like Simvibe as you can see the idea was to use units for stereo and surround sound channels. (Back then I experimented with Pro Logic IIx) via AV receiver decoding of the "game audio" to experience multichannel tactile in a seat.

You can see that I had the side TST units bolted to the side of the seat and they worked quite well.
I never did bolt on the side surround channel (mini lfe) as not long after this I think Simvibe was announced.


My Tactile Experiments @ 2010

 

[Dadz]

it's funny, these are the 2 locations that I also thought of. I would come back to present these 2 solutions.

Best Stereo Energy
As your seat supports only connect to the actual seat by 2 bolts, then the vibrations of the LFE/TST are only making contact to the seat potentially at the side of the seat support and the bolts that attach it to the seat. This is why I recommend a solution to let the energy enter into the seat underneath as well.

This won't be that hard to do as you could have adjustable brackets to alter the height/angel underneath the seat. With small plate(s) that contact the seat underneath and have these also covered with some STP noise control materials.

Having the energy enter the side and under/side of the seat should (if it responds in a similar way my own did) will increase the dispersion of the directional effects. Really the intention is to increase the vibrational contact surface for more efficient delivery of the tactile for each side of the seat.

Ok I understand now. Thank you

 

[Mr Latte]

Been pondering some options, but feeling that the TST on the sides like above is maybe the best option when I look at others and I know this can work good as well. I used a TST isolator in between the seat and the unit to support it better and ensure it cleared the seat support. The bolt for the TST went directly through the seat with rubber and metal washers.

The hardest part was doing a template or measuring to ensure the drilled holes were at identical points.
Take care that these will need to also not be affected by the positioning of the LFE units. It may be best to mount these first to determine the position to place the BK on the sides or to ensure the plate you make for it well let both be installed okay.

I think if TST is near back and LFE is near the center this should not be a problem

Look forward to your thoughts and next updates...

 

[Dadz]

I am back after a few days of absence, it will be a little update.

@Mr Latte, could you tell me what size of screw in diameter should be used to fix the BK units? I'm not sure I understand the rating from the official site.


TST

I tried to place it under the concert units and it is not possible.

Place it on the seat support with a TI-100 isolator from clark synthesis that is not wide enough. Because there will be the actuator. So I should move the actuator away so that the TST is in its place. I also had to review the shape of the LFE plate so that the bottom of the TST could have its place.

Link: https://clarksynthesis.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Isolation-Feet-Brochure.pdf

The 3D view:

Seat back arm attachment

I had to raise the seat by 40mm, to be able to place the ALU profile there. I have another solution that I will present to you in the next update.

Best Stereo Energy
As your seat supports only connect to the actual seat by 2 bolts, then the vibrations of the LFE/TST are only making contact to the seat potentially at the side of the seat support and the bolts that attach it to the seat. This is why I recommend a solution to let the energy enter into the seat underneath as well.

This won't be that hard to do as you could have adjustable brackets to alter the height/angel underneath the seat. With small plate(s) that contact the seat underneath and have these also covered with some STP noise control materials.

Having the energy enter the side and under/side of the seat should (if it responds in a similar way my own did) will increase the dispersion of the directional effects. Really the intention is to increase the vibrational contact surface for more efficient delivery of the tactile for each side of the seat.

I didn't have time to think about a solution.

 

[Dadz]

Hi,

@Mr Latte , A member in a group of SFX100 to share this:

Eluflex Schwingungsisolatoren & Schwingungsdämpfer

Die Schwingungsdämpfer Dresden GmbH fertigt diverse Schwingungsisolatoren der Marke Eluflex » robust ✓ wartungsfrei ✓ seewassergeeignet nach DIN 81249-1 ✓

www.sd-dresden.de

https://www.sd-dresden.de/files/sd/SDD_neu/video/EluFlex-Dauerpr%C3%BCfung-1.mp4

Wouldn't that be better than the sandwich isolators I chose?

LFE & TST

About the conduction of the vibrations of the LFE and TST units, I cu cu that with a friend boilermaker, we will make custom, we will put steel 4mm the angle of the seat overflowing 400mm and fixing on the seat support. it should be effective.


BK CT

For concert units, to compensate for the inclination of the seats, I think of doing a sanwich mode, that is to say:

place an ALU plate under the seats, put a layer of STP on it, put back an ALU plate, then a layer of STP etc ... And fix everything with screws, all this will be well pressed.


Time

My friend, will be leaving work soon, so if I want to take advantage of laser cutting, I have to finish my plans tonight. I think my solutions should work, I can't find anything else anyway.

@Mr Latte, could you tell me what size of screw in diameter should be used to fix the BK units? I'm not sure I understand the rating from the official site.

@Mr Latte , can you tell me what screw diameter you use to fix the BK units? please

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi, I believe the bolts are 6mm (M6) holes can be drilled to fit.

With these things, my approach was to test more than one solution. Most people want to order something, add it on and just run with it. So it depends on your approach how or what you decide to go with. I can't tell you how well those options you are considering will perform as I have not tried them. All I can do is offer advice but different solutions will perform differently and the only way to know is to test and validate how well a solution works and after that to determine if it needs or can be improved. I did not want to just rely on one, or the first solution tried.

Taking into account the amount of tactile hardware I am for using it needs a very substantial isolation solution. Now for me, what I deducted and preferred was that for each corner of the seat.

It would be supported by a metal plate section centering the weight loads of the seat in between two isolators rather than relying on just one. I felt that this would maintain the balance of the seat more when this solution was applied to front/back and left/right corner regions of the seat. Two more are placed up at the pedals. So this will greatly limit the amount of dip possible.

Here is image captures from video recorded standing/weight test from early December.
I stand on the extremes of the plate which wont be the case with the seat as the weight of the seat will be in the center. So using 4 of these (2x front/back 2x left/right) will be used to better balance the seat.




Approx 11 Stone 160lbs in body weight.

The intention is, it will help prevent the seat being affected as much also from lateral and longitudinal motion. Not just weight transfer from the user's bodyweight but how different angles, if the rig was placed with motion, would react.

So for me, I wanted the isolation to offer really good dampening but it help keep the seat well balanced too. I don't want a lot of dip or roll, yet having some degree of softer isolation helps the vertical rebound and tactile feel.

Here is a mock-up of the combination of materials being used, this gets bolted to 8020 support beneath. It has 3x different layers of STP solutions applied to each 8mm alu plate for both top and bottom.

1 of 6 supports for the rig. "L" shaped plates will be bolted to top/bottom to ensure the isolation pads and dual TI 300 isolators cannot twist/rotate when under stress. This whole section will not be seen that much as it will sit within and rise over 8020 160mm side profiles.

The top plate section, which has the tubing/frame and seat bolted will be very tactile active (as the tactile bolts directly to this). This as my own solution will vastly reduce the vibrations going into the base of the rig and floor. I have an upstairs room with a major priority of the build not to generate a lot of noise in rooms below.

Of course, further solutions would be used for feet static or SFX100 motion and I plan a base platform for that and the rig to be supported on. It will also hide all the cable clutter and help the rig look smart/professional.

I am keen to see and hear how what you decide to go with performs.

 

[Dadz]

For now I am focused on the conduction of LFE and TST, that's just it, I do not hurry and do not want to miss anything. And if what I do does not please, I will do something else.

Very interesting your compilation of insulator, that would improve the idea that I had. If I understand correctly you have 8 isolator compiled as in the photo? 2 at each corner of the seat?

 

[Mr Latte]

For now I am focused on the conduction of LFE and TST, that's just it, I do not hurry and do not want to miss anything. And if what I do does not please, I will do something else.

Very interesting your compilation of insulator, that would improve the idea that I had. If I understand correctly you have 8 isolator compiled as in the photo? 2 at each corner of the seat?

Each tower consists of 2x TI 300 isolators and 4x Diverstech EVA Pads all bolted/sandwiched together. This was not a cheap solution costing over £200 per tower (inc other materials used) and is certainly a reason my own build has been taking so long.


4x Steel/Chrome tubes go the length of the cockpit for each side. These parallel clamps secure them to the towers. Only the central 2 tubes are used to connect the upper-tier frame for the seat and pedal platforms.

I am going to go for an 8020 rig frame that will be about 70" long.
So behind the seat will be a pair of these (isolation towers) and immediately in front of the seat another pair.

Here is an early attempt at planning the layout...

So seat is placed in between the center and rear towers. The tape measure will be an idea of the 8020 surround, a gap will be kept between it and the isolation towers. To allow for movement. This will be longer and wider than a typical Simlab cockpit. Each pair of towers will be supported via two 120mm profiles and connecting to the outer 160mm profile.


Early build mockups to get an idea of size and positioning. I do not do 3D drawings as I get more inspiration with physical interaction. Notice the amount of tubing contact area the steel box frame I bolt to the seat underside has. All the tactile from the dual L/R BK and TST underneath go directly into this section.


I needed space underneath the seat region for the TST to hang and the central BK Concerts. These towers were made just tall enough to enable the TST to fit. See the isolation tower for the front of the seat, another will be behind. Only 4 bolts (in the center) support the upper tubing tier the seat and BK units will attach too.


On the upper tier, you see connection points for this. It is to further the immersion with tactile going directly under each knee with maintained stereo. These (leather headrests) are positional to a desired angle/height or can easily be removed. I will play about with these in future testing...



The tubing you see the TST beneath is the tubing the towers will bolt to. Yet as seen in other images above, there will be two more tubes on the outer sides of the ones seen.



The upper-tier tubing that then has the steel box frame under the seat has restricted contact points with the lower tubing. The contact area for each side of the seat with this box/tubing combination is much more than standard seat rails (image 3). It will contain the energy better and connects with the outer steel frame of the seat and also the section normally used for bolting the seat.


Meanwhile, any energy that can go down into the lower tier frame and isolators is controlled. It is only possible via 4x 8mm bolts for each side of the seat (circled). So the surface area/contact points for energy to flow up into the seat is much much greater than that seeping down.

I did this to control the possible pathway the tactile must go (and can only go) to enter the bottom tier and into the isolation towers. Specifically to help maintain the energy in the seat but the way the tactile are installed the vast majority of their energy will go into the seat before the energy can go anywhere else. This is not something many rigs do in how the tactile is installed.

Hope it helps give you or others their own inspiration or ideas

 

[Dadz]

Yes thank you, it is especially the isolator technique from the seat to the chassis, which I find really good. I had that what I was going to imagine was not enough.

For LFE units, I will make the information pass to the side and below (to a certain limit).

For concert units, I might try several solutions. My problem is this angle of 7 °. And the seat itself which is also tilted, so I have 55mm to grab to be able to put the concert units parallel to the ground.