The open debate on closed cockpits

[TuskWarrior]

Pussification of everything these days.

 

[kelaroost]

No its not enclosed.
The force on the front of the helmet is greater than the pressure behind.
So its not a problem
but the way they have drawn it its enclosed so the bressure behind the drivers head is greater so .
headless drivers @ 200 mph

 

[Dan Allen]

@kelaroost
Come on, think about it, do you believe for one minute the F1 team designers are going to create a component on an F1 car that wont allow for maximum air flow, and then take advantage of that airflow by using it to create more down-force. Also if you look at the design of the front screen very little air would flow into the actual cockpit due to it being forced out and away from the cockpit opening, sure there will still be a level of airflow in and around the drivers head but I doubt that it will be any more than it is today. And I would hazard a guess that the drivers heads don't get buffered about at 300+kmh currently due to air flow being controlled by all the winglets etc, they don't use wind tunnels for flying kites mate . Cheers

What about visibility? Surely the screen could cause problems with that??

 

[Philip Heck]

No its not enclosed.

I just don't see where this design by lola would be "enclosed"?

 

[mmpaw37]

I say ABSOLUTELY NO!!!...Of course they would improve safety and significantly reduce the possibility of a major injury or even death, but doing this would IMHO would ruin the sport completely.

The drivers today have been acclimated over the years to accept the fact that in racing, there is an inherent constant danger of getting hurt, that is what they live for...the adrenaline rush!
If the FIA were introduce this into the sport then that would be the final straw...for me at least. I have been watching all manner of motor racing, witnessing many horrific and unfortunately deaths over the years including Formula 1 and the tragic deaths in the early nineties, but that is the attraction - not wanting to watch someone die, but the excitement of watching these drivers push themselves and their machinery to the limit.

So PLEASE FIA, at least leave Formula 1 as the way it pretty much began!

 

[Dan Allen]

I would have to respectfully disagree there @kelaroost. What you said insinuates that the air will flow over the car and go back again. It's my understanding that F1 aero allows you to cut through clean air as fast as possible, whilst creating as little drag as possible

 

[kelaroost]

Disagree all you want but you cant ignore basic physics and fluid dynamics of air pressure for a pretty design.
The design is a no good because his created a enclosed area that will cause positive pressure, so anything within that air pocket will be thrown out.
Im done trying to explain simple stuff.

 

[Philip Heck]

try to explain all you want, but there is no more of an "enclosed" space than on the current designs or a convertible car, or a pick-up truck...

 

[Alberto Caessa]

Disagree all you want but you cant ignore basic physics and fluid dynamics of air pressure for a pretty design.
The design is a no good because his created a enclosed area that will cause positive pressure, so anything within that air pocket will be thrown out.
Im done trying to explain simple stuff.

As Philip Heck already pointed out, in that drawing there is a roll bar over the driver's head, and NOT as you think a semi-canopy, so there is no enclosed space behind the driver's helmet. Take a closer look at the drawing.

 

[Dan Allen]

@Alberto Caessa has the best avatar ever!

 

[kelaroost]

so its not closed ?
looks like a closed area to me.

changes everything if its open.
Means everything ive been saying was for nothing.
Poor picture,
needs to be edited to show its open and not closed.

 

[InsaneOzzie]

What about visibility? Surely the screen could cause problems with that??

Yes that's definitely possible, glare from the sun at a particular angle could potentially blind a driver. but we must remember the F1 designers are not about to make a modification that is detrimental to driver safety, the R&D that would go into a design of this nature would overcome any and all safety issues, come on we're talking F1, the pinnacle of Motorsport where millions are invested in new technologies and R&D.

Cheers

 

[Leonardo Chaves]

I say ABSOLUTELY NO!!!...Of course they would improve safety and significantly reduce the possibility of a major injury or even death, but doing this would IMHO would ruin the sport completely.

The drivers today have been acclimated over the years to accept the fact that in racing, there is an inherent constant danger of getting hurt, that is what they live for...the adrenaline rush!
If the FIA were introduce this into the sport then that would be the final straw...for me at least. I have been watching all manner of motor racing, witnessing many horrific and unfortunately deaths over the years including Formula 1 and the tragic deaths in the early nineties, but that is the attraction - not wanting to watch someone die, but the excitement of watching these drivers push themselves and their machinery to the limit.

So PLEASE FIA, at least leave Formula 1 as the way it pretty much began!

I hate it when the FIA makes the cars slower in the name of safety, it's ridiculous that cars from 10 years ago are way faster than what we have now.

If you wanted to enhance the adrenaline rush by suggesting more powerfull engines and lighter cars i would be onboard with that (i won't go into aero because there's always a big discussion whether more downforce makes it easier or harder).
I also hope that a great challenging track like Suzuka (btw tarmac escape roads only work in the dry, a good old gravel trap would've helped Bianchi a lot more in addition to make the track more punishing for mistakes) doesn't get destroyed because it's deemed unsafe by modern standards.


But what you are preaching is just unnecessary risk, the fact that the drivers head is unprotected from flying objects doesn't make the cars any more exciting to drive or to watch, taking risks to do something exciting is a lot of fun, risks for the sake of being risky are just dumb.

 

[Grand Tourist]

I voted yes. Look at the LMP1 cars, they have closed cockpits too and produce massive speeds. The crashes are severe (like Alan McNish in the Audi e-tron @ Le Mans) but drivers are protected much more due to the closed cockpit. Also, from an esthetic point of view, it looks just awesome!! But I guess it won't be up to us for making decisions like this, let's leave that to Bernie....oh wait...maybe better not to

 

[Reik Major]

I think we forgett one important point in this debate: The Marshals!

Passive safety standards of the cars to secure the drivers are already extremly high and will still go on improving (be it open cockpits or closed ones). But in Jules' case it would've changed nothing if he had hit a Marshal.

So the main focus in this case should be on how to force the cars/drivers to pass such occasions in a real safe way.

The biggest issue for now is the natural attitude of a racer to be as fast as possible in contrary to the need to pass yellow sections at a reasonable reduced speed. To leave the decision to the driver how much he reduces speed is the dilema you never get solved until you take away this decision from the racer.

I have an idea to get this solved. Shall I post it here or is there another better place/thread to discuss about it?

 

[Phil Dawson]

Your making yourself look like a 1st year student.
give up wile you can.
Simple fact is air flow against a object that's within a enclosed area will be pushed towards the on coming air pressure.
Like I said before this design will pull a mans head off @ 200 mph.
You can try to divert the air flow but that will only make it miss the engine intake above the drivers head.

The engine intake is 1 to 2" above the drivers head.
if that air flow that's being redirected with the front wind screen goes above the air intake the engine will over heat.
If its below it + 2" the drivers head will come off.

Disagree all you want but you cant ignore basic physics and fluid dynamics of air pressure for a pretty design.
The design is a no good because his created a enclosed area that will cause positive pressure, so anything within that air pocket will be thrown out.
Im done trying to explain simple stuff.

I was tempted to do cfd on a quick mock up of this style of screen and hoop over the drivers head to see what the air pressure differences would be like.

Whilst it would likely create buffeting in it's current form, it would be engineered out, as disrupted air flow results in drag, and it certainly wouldn't rip a mans head off.

You're talking rubbish, if it's "simple physics" as you keep saying, demonstrate the maths for us all, it will save me the time of doing 3D models to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[Mancsfinest]

the issue was the crane ,and poorly trained marshalls,green flags were being waved at that corner when it happend ,and yellows a bit further back he was doing 130mph without overtaking at the yellow flag before the incident ,and aquaplaned into a obsticle which shouldnt have been on the track, closed wheel pods would have saved senna,but even that incident ( senna said he wasnt happy about the corner and poor run off,with only trees he and otherin the past have crashed atthe same point ,these things we have learnt by but the crane vs car on track we still havnt learnt from ,its happend/s many times ,im not convinced even a closed cockpit would have saved ratzenburger,but yes it could have saved many ,but when you start doing all this to a f1 car its getting to be more like LMP/LMP2 class ,(these cars do 24hrs races) something f1 can only dream of ,f1 will never be completely safe but its been much improved,this incident could have been avoided !!,let us not forget that

closed cockpit would have to be diffrent race class,rules,regs
and I
hope he recovers fully

 

[Dazmaniac]

From what I read about Bianchi's injuries, they were more connected to the massive acceleration/deceleration of the impact of the car in to the safety fence, more than him hitting his head on the recovery truck (though I could be wrong and he may have sustained head trauma from the truck).

There are plenty of 'closed cockpit' racing series where there have been fatalities. Yes it might save a few from death or serious injury because there is some form of covering for the driver, but there are also certain types of crashes where a 'closed cockpit' gives the driver no protection whatsoever.

 

[Dazmaniac]

I voted yes. Look at the LMP1 cars, they have closed cockpits too and produce massive speeds. The crashes are severe (like Alan McNish in the Audi e-tron @ Le Mans) but drivers are protected much more due to the closed cockpit. Also, from an esthetic point of view, it looks just awesome!! But I guess it won't be up to us for making decisions like this, let's leave that to Bernie....oh wait...maybe better not to

The enclosed cockpit didn't do much for Allan Simonsen in 2013 at Le Mans in his Aston Martin Vantage GTE.

 

[Mancsfinest]

whilst the red bull x1 was a car for another game (not mentioned,lol) they did sculpt and wind test the idea using full size models with impresive drag co-ificency ,they are aware of the fact it would cost billions to get it to do one lap and as it would be the only car/class of its type ,a whole new class would exist,and some of the "quick tracks" wouldnt be long enough ,whilst the made up performance figures were ridiculous (1483hp) ,700kg 0-220 kph @ 1.2 seconds (lol) ,the idea is at least out in the general area of motorsport fans,maybe 30 yrs from now will look on and see how unsafe we are atm ,the idea is out its whether its worth the money to do i guess .