This sim is 7 years old right? So how in hell...

Slapped · Oct 10, 2020

...does a 7 year old racing sim have such a realistic and totally convincing AI, while the AI in more modern sims such as ACC behave more like a bunch of teslas on autopilot playing follow the leader?

Ok I'll admit that R3E has been sitting on the dusty part of my games SSD for quite a while now, and I recently went all in on the content, but today was the first time I attacked this in anger with the DTM 2020 content on the Nurb GP, and honestly this was the best AI racing I've yet to experience.

I then watched a replay of my race and compared to a real DTM 2020 highlight reel and I was honestly totally impressed with how the AI mirrors the real life racing - the mistakes, the nudging, the off track battles, the lines the cars take, the side by side door handle to door handle stuff.

I think I'm going to spend a lot more time in this.

Alex Townsend · Oct 10, 2020

I must admit I've not given this much time at all recently.
ACC and rF2 updates stealing the limelight.
But will jump on to this and give the new content a go for sure now.

UMC 22 · Oct 10, 2020

Agree entirely.

No AI is perfect of course, but in R3E it really is great, best of the current sims in my opinion. I ran exactly the same combo as you mentioned just recently and had a brilliant race, really enjoyable and closer than most of the races I have online!

Poor, robotic AI is one of the primary reasons I rarely drive offline in sims outside of solo practice for upcoming online events, but R3E is certainly the exception.

Kenny Paton · Oct 10, 2020

I describe racing against the AI in R3E as the most visceral of any sim.
It’s not so surprising considering that Race 07's AI was about the best vanilla of its time, and still is pretty good if the aiw has been done correctly.
If you enjoy touring car action with door to door action then the tintops in RaceRoom are streets ahead of the competition.

amsterDAN · Oct 10, 2020

I had to go away on business for a few weeks and only yesterday I finally got an opportunity to sim it up again for the first time in a while. Began with AMS2 to check out the big update, had fun hotlapping new cars for an hour or so, but then tried to run a race with the AI that went so poorly it instantly inspired me to switch games. Scooted over to ACC, enjoyed myself considerably more and had an alright race against the computer, but ultimately determined I'd be better off waiting for some friends to get online. Then I booted up RaceRoom.... and four hours disappeared in the blink of an eye as I battled with that glorious AI.

I can never quite put my finger on exactly what it is that makes me love the RaceRoom AI so much; all I can really say is that I routinely forget that I'm not actually racing real people when I'm playing, and I suppose that's one of the best compliments you can possibly pay to artificial intelligence.

UMC 22 · Oct 10, 2020

amsterDAN said:
I can never quite put my finger on exactly what it is that makes me love the RaceRoom AI so much...

I think part of it is the "human" behaviour which Slapped eluded to in his original post. The R3E AI is opportunistic, it reacts to what's going on around it, it won't give up without a fight, and it can be actively pressured into making mistakes as well as making a few all on it's own.

In other words, rather than being a bunch of rolling roadblocks you have to find a way to pass, they're actual opponents you need to fight for position, and who also fight each other just as much. You don't end up with the typical AI procession of single-file traffic, you get an actual race.

Slapped · Oct 10, 2020

Goffik said:
I think part of it is the "human" behaviour which Slapped eluded to in his original post. The R3E AI is opportunistic, it reacts to what's going on around it, it won't give up without a fight, and it can be actively pressured into making mistakes as well as making a few all on it's own.

In other words, rather than being a bunch of rolling roadblocks you have to find a way to pass, they're actual opponents you need to fight for position, and who also fight each other just as much. You don't end up with the typical AI procession of single-file traffic, you get an actual race.

That's it, you've nailed - The human behaviour - bang on. Honestly, even though I couldn't see it in the mirror I was 100% convinced one of the AI was informing me of his intention to come first by giving me a single middle finger through the windshield after a less than elegant overtake manoeuver by me, and one that involved a quite a bit of paint swapping. He wasn't going to let it lie - he was trying everything to get the position back including giving me a couple of nudges.

One of the things I really enjoyed is that you have to be 100% aware of what's going on around you - you need a mental "proximity scanner" so to say. You have to be able to predict where another driver is. There's no getting alongside and expecting the other driver to yield and fall back - it's down to you to send it and make it stick, or be aware enough to know it isn't working and back out. Equally if you see another driver go for it on you, you need to know if the next 2 corners are on your side or against you and act accordingly. This is what's missing with the AI in a lot of modern sims, and really the only other racing games that come close in terms of AI are IMO the F1 series.

I've seen a lot of complaints about AI by sim racers who think an AI is overly aggressive when in actual fact the problem lies with their lack of awareness. The ACC AI started out promising with some good hard racing, but as far as I'm aware Kunos neutered it because too many people complained about it being too aggressive, leading to today's "Train Simulator-esque" behaviour.

amsterDAN · Oct 10, 2020

You guys have done a far better job than I ever could have in describing what makes the AI so realistic-feeling. Now that I think of it, the AI's ability to make human-like mistakes is definitely one of the biggest factors that really ups the immersion for me. Sometimes you swing around a corner to find some poor sap stranded in the gravel, or sitting out in the grass facing the wrong way, or with his forehead firmly pressed against one of Macau's wicked walls, and you have no idea how he got there, it wasn't just a reaction to something you specifically did, the car was simply running its own race entirely independent of whatever you were doing and its AI driver did a dumb-dumb. You can go door-to-door down a straight with the AI stubbornly refusing to concede its spot to you, then see him head into the next corner a tiny bit too hot and learn a hard lesson about the limits of grip all on his own, no nudges needed. I find these sorts of incidents add little emergent storylines to singleplayer races that really make me feel swept up in the mayhem of a race. In a lot of other sims it feels to me like nothing short of ramming the other car can take them off their invisible rails, but in RaceRoom they really sell the impression that the AI drivers are making decisions... and not always good ones!

Kenny Paton · Oct 10, 2020

Slapped said:
you have to be 100% aware of what's going on around you - you need a mental "proximity scanner" so to say.

I use Crew Chief even in sp, adds to the atmosphere, so I've got a spotter.

Slapped · Oct 10, 2020

Kenny Paton said:
I use Crew Chief even in sp, adds to the atmosphere, so I've got a spotter.

Oh bloody hell yes, I've been using that in the original AC when in VR and it's the dog's bollocks - especially when you've got the "sweary" mode on - hadn't even considered that it would be compatible with R3E.

I now know what my Sunday is going to be and my GF is not going to be best pleased.

Lars Hansen · Oct 10, 2020

Also, OtterHUDcomes with a HeliCorsa-esque radar which I find invaluable in figuring out who's overtaking me. ;D

Kenny Paton · Oct 10, 2020

@Lars Hansen I should have mentioned the work you've done with training the AI and the tool by pixeljetstream.

Lars Hansen · Oct 11, 2020

Kenny Paton said:
@Lars Hansen I should have mentioned the work you've done with training the AI and the tool by pixeljetstream.

If it needed mentioning, I would've done so.

Fastard · Oct 11, 2020

AI fight, attack, overtake, mistake, try to avoid&continue when you re-enter the track after an exit
Al is magnificent

R3E drives good
Sounds better

A great sim overall

G-Slev · Oct 24, 2020

The AI is great and not at all glitchy. I do wonder sometimes if the AI in Rfactor 2 quaffed a truckload of hallucinogenic drugs before leaving the pits.

Kenny Paton · Oct 24, 2020

G-Slev said:
I do wonder sometimes if the AI in Rfactor 2 quaffed a truckload of hallucinogenic drugs before leaving the pits.

It's strange because not that many years ago it set the standard for AI racing.
I wonder if the MP side of things has now taken precedence with the involvement in esports.

UMC 22 · Oct 24, 2020

Kenny Paton said:
I wonder if the MP side of things has now taken precedence with the involvement in esports.

Given R3E's rather large leaning towards online racing and esports events, it shows you can do both with a little time and effort. I don't play rF2 but I hope they get it sorted, because the offline market is a lot bigger than a lot of people realise.

G-Slev · Oct 24, 2020

Goffik said:
Given R3E's rather large leaning towards online racing and esports events, it shows you can do both with a little time and effort. I don't play rF2 but I hope they get it sorted, because the offline market is a lot bigger than a lot of people realise.

RF2 is wonderful to drive, and the beta UI makes it a lot more user friendly.

It should be what Assetto Corsa became.

Mekonrider · Oct 26, 2020

I find the AI unpredictable but not in a stupid way like AMS2 at the moment. It feels 'human', well more human than some others and I almost feel like applauding the AI sometimes when I've been overtaken.

Some of the sims seems to suffer from the AI having poor mid corner speed but magical traction afterwards.