2022 Formula One Emilia Romagna Grand Prix

Jugulador · Apr 27, 2022

LMGiorni said:
No, no about wokeness, that is another thing that is politics in sport and is all around.

I'm talking about Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Hakkinen (although Hakkinen started in McLaren he did not get special treatment against Nigel Mansell) that are the closest champions we can recall they started in not the best team, the title contender of the year nor the year before. And they got the right of first driver by merit and struggle through the seasons. Not as Hamilton that in his first year as rookie was in the most competitive team (the one that if not disqualified would have won easily the championship) and had a special treatment even against the first drive a two times world champion.
That is privilege and is what I saw from the start of his path, and even if he struggles with a bad car a season or two never got into a not top 2, 3 cars. Even if McLaren was bad at that stage was one of the teams that had a really big budget.
For me, that is one of the things that clearly makes a separation in the character and personality of a Champion.
That's all it is for me, so in my opinion even if he got 12 championships would worth not much compared to others.

Different times, my friend. Back them, there was no McLaren "Academy" (Hamilton was supported by McLaren since he was a kid... including a pre-contract that he earned as a potential talent). When those folks (even Alonso) were promoted into F1, they were basically total strangers to F1 teams and was common to spend some experience time on smaller teams.

But the fact is that NONE of those drivers won a championship on a weak team/car. Usually, only drivers on the top team win the championship, with rare exceptions. So, there is no point to discuss who is the most privileged driver in a category populated only by privileged drivers. We will spent time discussing irrelevant details.

BTW: F1 is ALL about team and there is not much point is discuss drivers since at least 90% of any grid had absolutely no chance to win the current championship. So, what is the point even to compare drivers from soo much different eras??

blekenbleu · Apr 27, 2022

Here is an hypothesis, based on observing that Bottas was often faster than LH in FP1.
Lewis got in the habit of going faster, using basically Valtteri's setup,
so he could party between races, letting homework slide.
George's setup works less well for Lewis...

LMGiorni · Apr 27, 2022

Jugulador said:
Different times, my friend. Back them, there was no McLaren "Academy" (Hamilton was supported by McLaren since he was a kid... including a pre-contract that he earned as a potential talent). When those folks (even Alonso) were promoted into F1, they were basically total strangers to F1 teams and was common to spend some experience time on smaller teams.

But the fact is that NONE of those drivers won a championship on a weak team/car. Usually, only drivers on the top team win the championship, with rare exceptions. So, there is no point to discuss who is the most privileged driver in a category populated only by privileged drivers. We will spent time discussing irrelevant details.

BTW: F1 is ALL about team and there is not much point is discuss drivers since at least 90% of any grid had absolutely no chance to win the current championship. So, what is the point even to compare drivers from soo much different eras??

Well is quite a difference to start in a lower team and have to spend 3 or 4 years to maybe get promoted to a better team as a regular driver than what Hamilton got as a deal that started in the Best Team of the moment.
So, the amount of value you get not only in exposure but also in statistics is quite a lot of advantage.
Imagine Schumacher getting in Williams from the start. That would have been quite a remarkable amount of scoring on the stats. The same with any other remarkable champion.
If you cannot see this unique privilege that Hamilton had from the start, at least in F1, I do feel you may not be fair when judging other drivers.
And as he never got to fight in F1 to get promoted to the best cars, I think his character lacks what others had in big quantities, and that is a tireless fighting spirit.

LMGiorni · Apr 27, 2022

First Teams and Team champ pos:
Hakkinen Mika: Team Lotus / P9
Schumacher Michael: Camel Benetton Ford / P4
Villeneuve Jacques: Williams Renault / P1
Finished Second by 19 points in first rookie year, won the championship the next year.
Alonso Fernando: European Minardi F1 Team / P11
Vettel Sebastian: Toro Rosso / P7
Hamilton Lewis: McLaren-Mercedes / P1 - excluded
Finished Second by 1 point in first rookie year, won the championship the next year.

I think there is quite a difference between Jacks, Hamilton and the rest of them. Don't you think?

As stated before, he is a good driver, fast and consistent, but I think he could show a lot more than anybody else from the start, so the stats and success is quite a bit inflated in my point of view, and he lacked the benefit of the doubt to show off in a performance lacking team. In 2011, he was bitten by his teammate with quite a margin (43 points) and his teammate was Jason Button that is not quite a superb driver at all.

For sure, you can disagree with me, but this is why for me, he is not as superior as the media and many fans pretend he is.

JayOTT · Apr 27, 2022

LMGiorni said:
In 2011, he was bitten by his teammate with quite a margin (43 points) and his teammate was Jason Button that is not quite a superb driver at all.

Here we go again with the "weak world champion" argument. This is false, Button was every bit as strong a teammate and rival for Hamilton as Alonso and Rosberg were. If you're going down that slippery slope of calling world champions anything less than superb, you would have to label the following "not superb" also:

Verstappen (handed race and title win in Abu Dhabi)
Rosberg (champion because of mechnical fortune)
Hakkinen (two driver error DNF's in 1999, almost lost to Irvine)
Villeneuve (did bugger all after beating an inferior Ferrari)
Hill (struggled to beat a rookie teammate for the title)
Mansell (beaten by two teammates before winning a cupcake)
Keke Rosberg (won one race, champion because Pironi got injured)

Most if not all of these drivers are nonetheless considered superb by consensus so I'm not sure how you can say that Button wasn't.

Fat-Alfie · Apr 27, 2022

LMGiorni said:
Well is quite a difference to start in a lower team and have to spend 3 or 4 years to maybe get promoted to a better team as a regular driver than what Hamilton got as a deal that started in the Best Team of the moment.
So, the amount of value you get not only in exposure but also in statistics is quite a lot of advantage.
Imagine Schumacher getting in Williams from the start. That would have been quite a remarkable amount of scoring on the stats. The same with any other remarkable champion.
If you cannot see this unique privilege that Hamilton had from the start, at least in F1, I do feel you may not be fair when judging other drivers.
And as he never got to fight in F1 to get promoted to the best cars, I think his character lacks what others had in big quantities, and that is a tireless fighting spirit.

So Verstappen spending one season in the race winning Toro Rosso team before being promoted to the top tier Red Bull team devalues him as a driver too? Just so I understand your point clearly...

WiisardNic · Apr 27, 2022

Fat-Alfie said:
So Verstappen spending one season in the race winning Toro Rosso team before being promoted to the top tier Red Bull team devalues him as a driver too? Just so I understand your point clearly...

Verstappen at Red Bull in 2016-2020 is like Schumacher at Benetton in 1991-1993

muzikant · Apr 27, 2022

JayOTT said:
Here we go again with the "weak world champion" argument. This is false, Button was every bit as strong a teammate and rival for Hamilton as Alonso and Rosberg were. If you're going down that slippery slope of calling world champions anything less than superb, you would have to label the following "not superb" also:

Verstappen (handed race and title win in Abu Dhabi)
Rosberg (champion because of mechnical fortune)
Hakkinen (two driver error DNF's in 1999, almost lost to Irvine)
Villeneuve (did bugger all after beating an inferior Ferrari)
Hill (struggled to beat a rookie teammate for the title)
Mansell (beaten by two teammates before winning a cupcake)
Keke Rosberg (won one race, champion because Pironi got injured)

Most if not all of these drivers are nonetheless considered superb by consensus so I'm not sure how you can say that Button wasn't.

I agree with many things but that Max got the title for free from Michael Massi, opinions are divided on that..
I think it is well deserved.

About Lewis the man is certainly talented but he has won the titles very easily that people are going to see now, now that Mercedes does not have the car in 2022

Richard Wilks · Apr 27, 2022

JayOTT said:
Here we go again with the "weak world champion" argument. This is false, Button was every bit as strong a teammate and rival for Hamilton as Alonso and Rosberg were. If you're going down that slippery slope of calling world champions anything less than superb, you would have to label the following "not superb" also:

Verstappen (handed race and title win in Abu Dhabi)
Rosberg (champion because of mechnical fortune)
Hakkinen (two driver error DNF's in 1999, almost lost to Irvine)
Villeneuve (did bugger all after beating an inferior Ferrari)
Hill (struggled to beat a rookie teammate for the title)
Mansell (beaten by two teammates before winning a cupcake)
Keke Rosberg (won one race, champion because Pironi got injured)

Most if not all of these drivers are nonetheless considered superb by consensus so I'm not sure how you can say that Button wasn't.

Nobody is making that argument.

The argument here, is that LH has something to prove yes, and now is the time to prove it, that he can be a team leader in the face of big adversity, and that he can find the motivation and keep coming back and giving his all even if the chances of a win are zero.

All the drivers in your list had to do that, so this has nothing to do about how their titles came to be.

LMGiorni · Apr 27, 2022

JayOTT said:
Here we go again with the "weak world champion" argument. This is false, Button was every bit as strong a teammate and rival for Hamilton as Alonso and Rosberg were. If you're going down that slippery slope of calling world champions anything less than superb, you would have to label the following "not superb" also:

Verstappen (handed race and title win in Abu Dhabi)
Rosberg (champion because of mechnical fortune)
Hakkinen (two driver error DNF's in 1999, almost lost to Irvine)
Villeneuve (did bugger all after beating an inferior Ferrari)
Hill (struggled to beat a rookie teammate for the title)
Mansell (beaten by two teammates before winning a cupcake)
Keke Rosberg (won one race, champion because Pironi got injured)

Most if not all of these drivers are nonetheless considered superb by consensus so I'm not sure how you can say that Button wasn't.

I would say this again.
The sad part is that many other Champions, even if they won because of just 1 point, like Kimi in 2007, started not in the best Team in the category. They worked the way up, at least one season with many struggles that allowed them to show off, and also forge character as they need to battle the car and also the circumstances as to progress in their careers.
Contrary to any other Champions, in exception to Villeneuve, Hamilton had it easy to show his talent from the first season as rookie without any struggle.
So he never had to fight quite hard to get into a position of privilege, he was on that position from the start. Maybe he earned that because he was so good before F1, possibly, but nonetheless it is a quite remarkable difference from the other champion drivers careers.

And so I think it is much more difficult that he could probe up to the task today if when younger and hungry for success he never had to do the effort. I think he is done if he doesn't have the best car, not because he is not good at driving, but he is not that special either, he just had not that treat that you could see in Max, Senna, Schumacher where you can see clearly that the car is at the slight limit.

Last championship Lewis got the best car of all, RB was superb, and as fast in the hands of Max. I remember last championship as a resemblance of years like 98 where McLaren was clearly the best car, but Ferrari was quite close, and much closer with Schumacher at the wheel.

BrunoBæ · Apr 27, 2022

I just got some kind of revelation reading all these rather subjective posts pro/con godbye Lewis.
Revelation: It could have been pretty interesting if Romain Grosjean really had got his "farewell drive" in the 2021 Mercedes F1 car.
And yes I know that the team would never dare to set the car up to Lewis standard - not even close.
And yes I know that Grosjean would never get so much track time that he got to know the car fully.
But even with these handicaps it could be fun to see how close he could get to Lewis laptimes.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: Yes Im only fantasying - but it was a real revelation though

Damage Inc · Apr 28, 2022

JayOTT said:
Here we go again with the "weak world champion" argument. This is false, Button was every bit as strong a teammate and rival for Hamilton as Alonso and Rosberg were. If you're going down that slippery slope of calling world champions anything less than superb, you would have to label the following "not superb" also:

Verstappen (handed race and title win in Abu Dhabi)
Rosberg (champion because of mechnical fortune)
Hakkinen (two driver error DNF's in 1999, almost lost to Irvine)
Villeneuve (did bugger all after beating an inferior Ferrari)
Hill (struggled to beat a rookie teammate for the title)
Mansell (beaten by two teammates before winning a cupcake)
Keke Rosberg (won one race, champion because Pironi got injured)

Most if not all of these drivers are nonetheless considered superb by consensus so I'm not sure how you can say that Button wasn't.

Arguing that Lewis isn't quite as good as his fans think or that he isn't the GOAT or that he has been very fortunate to be in a faster car for longer than any driver in history does not mean people think Lewis is a bad/weak driver. He is obviously an extremely talented driver ONE of the very best and an F1 legend, but not the GOAT....because NO driver is.

LMGiorni · Apr 28, 2022

I do respect him because he is a good driver above average for sure but In my opinion with the lack of a mediocre to average team on his back in his F1 career, those stats and accomplishments are very inflated.
And Fans or British media could say whatever they like, that is not in many respects an objective opinion. As I stated, the media scandal last year over Monza incident compared to Britain incident shows quite clearly that the media (in majority British) has a bias towards Lewis (This came a long time since his first rookie year).
And tho I can care less about if they think he is the GOAT, if they think he always over drove the car and had always been in a team that was not competitive at all. That is not true and that will not take that opinion out of the FANS or British media but at least will make other people, the ones that could be more objective, to see that those facts are there, and maybe they were unable to see them as the popular saying about Lewis is that he had to fight hard to get where he is. And in F1 was not the case, maybe was before, but he entered with way more privilege than any other F1 Champion to date. Even compared to Jacques Villeneuve, with the one who shares: starting his rookie year in the best team of the moment and winning the championship in his second year with that same team.

Jugulador · Apr 28, 2022

LMGiorni said:
Well is quite a difference to start in a lower team and have to spend 3 or 4 years to maybe get promoted to a better team as a regular driver than what Hamilton got as a deal that started in the Best Team of the moment.
So, the amount of value you get not only in exposure but also in statistics is quite a lot of advantage.
Imagine Schumacher getting in Williams from the start. That would have been quite a remarkable amount of scoring on the stats. The same with any other remarkable champion.
If you cannot see this unique privilege that Hamilton had from the start, at least in F1, I do feel you may not be fair when judging other drivers.
And as he never got to fight in F1 to get promoted to the best cars, I think his character lacks what others had in big quantities, and that is a tireless fighting spirit.

I can't argue against it, but I'm saying that you are not considering the rest of his career BEFORE F1. He, at a young age, powned basically every category that he raced in and THIS gave him the spot in McLaren.

But the most important that I'm saying, and you are ignoring, is that:

1) The pattern in F1 is that the fast car win the championship and the driver's talent have minor influence in that...

2) ... and because of it, F1 is the worst racing category to evaluate who is the best driver.

Can you agree with this two assertions in a overall conjecture (forget Lewis for a second)?

Richard Wilks · Apr 28, 2022

Jugulador said:
I can't argue against it, but I'm saying that you are not considering the rest of his career BEFORE F1. He, at a young age, powned basically every category that he raced in and THIS gave him the spot in McLaren.

But the most important that I'm saying, and you are ignoring, is that:

1) The pattern in F1 is that the fast car win the championship and the driver's talent have minor influence in that...

2) ... and because of it, F1 is the worst racing category to evaluate who is the best driver.

Can you agree with this two assertions in a overall conjecture (forget Lewis for a second)?

If you are trying to use Hamilton's feeder series record to justify something, then it's only fair that we look at it through the lens of the fact that, being hired by Mclaren at a very young age, he had top equipment all his career, which only reinforces the point that @LMGiorni is making.

Fat-Alfie · Apr 28, 2022

I'm sure McLaren were in the habit of supporting average drivers for year after year...

LMGiorni · Apr 28, 2022

Jugulador said:
I can't argue against it, but I'm saying that you are not considering the rest of his career BEFORE F1. He, at a young age, powned basically every category that he raced in and THIS gave him the spot in McLaren.

But the most important that I'm saying, and you are ignoring, is that:

1) The pattern in F1 is that the fast car win the championship and the driver's talent have minor influence in that...

2) ... and because of it, F1 is the worst racing category to evaluate who is the best driver.

Can you agree with this two assertions in a overall conjecture (forget Lewis for a second)?

Not so fast, I would say.
What you said about his career before F1 doesn't make any different, Schumacher had to use his opponent already used tires to compete in Kart, he had no real money to race and that makes ¿what?
Nothing, as I can state that he had the chance to get in an F1 sit because of a rare and very limiting chance and later snatched one race to the other to a better team, not the best, but was also better than the Minardi Alonso had to drive for his first rookie season.

About those 2 points, you expect me to agree with, not that much. What's clear is that will never have a totally agreeable GOAT or anything like that. But what we can have is people pointing out to one and giving some reasonable explanation why they considered it that way. That is great for me, I don't necessarily need to agree which driver is the best as there are not only technical limitations in some cases but also technological changes through the years and for example Fangio that was quite a driver will not be fitted for the modern F1, even the 1990 cars. As he was so older when he started, but now you can't think of a driver with almost 40 years starting in F1, for example.
But if they are currently driving, I can assure you that there is a way to speculate how a driver is performing. One is comparing him with his teammate, and the other is looking at how much of a car he is driving and how much of a result he is getting and why.
That for sure will let you know at least if he is skilled, like many argued about Mazzepin for example, or consistent as if in a race he is not able to perform at the same pace and tho lack performance with a package that would allow him to do better.

So, yeah, will never be a 100% as not only reason plays a role here also our passion and perception of things so, never going to get an official 100% opinion that every other person will agree but at least there will be opinion founded in facts that could change someone or not about his own way of looking at the same thing.
That's all the purpose of this Forum, and it's my purpose when I comment. Not to have the truth, but pointing in a direction that I think leads there.

Damage Inc · Apr 28, 2022

Jugulador said:
I can't argue against it, but I'm saying that you are not considering the rest of his career BEFORE F1. He, at a young age, powned basically every category that he raced in and THIS gave him the spot in McLaren.

But the most important that I'm saying, and you are ignoring, is that:

1) The pattern in F1 is that the fast car win the championship and the driver's talent have minor influence in that...

2) ... and because of it, F1 is the worst racing category to evaluate who is the best driver.

Can you agree with this two assertions in a overall conjecture (forget Lewis for a second)?

I think you'll find most top F1 drivers won almost everything they entered in the junior catergories, it's normal, and Lewis' record not exceptional in that regard. I think Stroll has a damn good record in junior series!

Richard Wilks · Apr 28, 2022

Fat-Alfie said:
I'm sure McLaren were in the habit of supporting average drivers for year after year...

There is no shortage of drivers who won everything in the feeder series, and for some reason or another, never got the chance of a race winning car in F1.

So i don't see whats your point on that.

Jugulador · Apr 28, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
If you are trying to use Hamilton's feeder series record to justify something, then it's only fair that we look at it through the lens of the fact that, being hired by Mclaren at a very young age, he had top equipment all his career, which only reinforces the point that @LMGiorni is making.

I'm not denying that Lewis had privileges. Just saying that this is irrelevant in F1 because the reasons I pointed in my posts.

LMGiorni said:
Not so fast, I would say.
What you said about his career before F1 doesn't make any different, Schumacher had to use his opponent already used tires to compete in Kart, he had no real money to race and that makes ¿what?
Nothing, as I can state that he had the chance to get in an F1 sit because of a rare and very limiting chance and later snatched one race to the other to a better team, not the best, but was also better than the Minardi Alonso had to drive for his first rookie season.

About those 2 points, you expect me to agree with, not that much. What's clear is that will never have a totally agreeable GOAT or anything like that. But what we can have is people pointing out to one and giving some reasonable explanation why they considered it that way. That is great for me, I don't necessarily need to agree which driver is the best as there are not only technical limitations in some cases but also technological changes through the years and for example Fangio that was quite a driver will not be fitted for the modern F1, even the 1990 cars. As he was so older when he started, but now you can't think of a driver with almost 40 years starting in F1, for example.
But if they are currently driving, I can assure you that there is a way to speculate how a driver is performing. One is comparing him with his teammate, and the other is looking at how much of a car he is driving and how much of a result he is getting and why.
That for sure will let you know at least if he is skilled, like many argued about Mazzepin for example, or consistent as if in a race he is not able to perform at the same pace and tho lack performance with a package that would allow him to do better.

So, yeah, will never be a 100% as not only reason plays a role here also our passion and perception of things so, never going to get an official 100% opinion that every other person will agree but at least there will be opinion founded in facts that could change someone or not about his own way of looking at the same thing.
That's all the purpose of this Forum, and it's my purpose when I comment. Not to have the truth, but pointing in a direction that I think leads there.

That is the point. I found that is IRRELEVANT to discuss who is better than who in F1 because it's basically impossible.

I agree that he always had privileges and pointed why (the root of it, that is better not discuss here). I'm not even agreeing that he disserved McLaren spot, just what happened as a FACT.

And you agreed with my two points, just happen to instead of focusing in logical arguments is debating something that is irrelevant overall.

BTW: Romário and Weah "had no real money"... Schumacher were just less rich than some other kids of his circle.

Damage Inc said:
I think you'll find most top F1 drivers won almost everything they entered in the junior catergories, it's normal, and Lewis' record not exceptional in that regard. I think Stroll has a damn good record in junior series!

I agree... but Dad Stroll bought a race team to his baby driver and he still sucks. Lewis got privileges and used it right.

Anyway... fells useless to discuss F1 drivers in F1. I can discuss those who drove other top categories and won. For me, they are all small spoiled brats comparing, for example, with Goup B Master Race lol

F1 ever was, still is and will always be, an European aristocrat gentleman's club and nothing more than that. I don't expect it to be a true contest between drivers... they are there just because the cars don't drive themselves (yet).

2022 Formula One Emilia Romagna Grand Prix

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