2023 Formula One Japanese Grand Prix

Kingkoenig · Sep 23, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
Where are those supposedly better drivers then?

All over the world, in different series. I'm not saying that F1 doesn't have the greatest drivers. As I wrote, Verstappen, Hamilton, Alonso, Norris, Sainz, even Leclerc and Russell (and probably Piastri) are certainly the elite of the world's drivers. But there are many other drivers (that I also mentioned) that could be replaced by other drivers and the quality of the grid would not really change.

You really think that replacing Stroll, Tsunoda, Zhou or Sargeant with four drivers from Indycar or the WEC would really lower the level of F1? If a driver like Scott Dixon had switched to F1 when it was time, he would be a World Champion by now for sure. (It's too late, now, he's 43.)

There are several drivers in F1 that are there because they have the support from a good sponsor or a manufacturer. Why these drivers have such support is explained by many reasons: family connections, good salemanship, good agent, etc. Honda has for years promoted to F1 Japanese drivers who had no business being there in the first place. It's always been like that. Remember De Cesaris? He was in F1 for a long time, even if he spent his career destroying every car he drove, but he had a close relationship with Marlboro.

Nowadays, there are only 20 seats available. You'd think that would weed out the worst of the lot, but drivers like Mazepin, Latiffi, Stroll, Tsunoda, Schumacher or Sargeant still make it in F1 over better drivers who don't have the money.

Motor racing is like that. You need money. Period. But over the years, I've seen (and you've probably seen too) that the most deserving don't always get the sponsors to make it to the top. Sometimes, it's their fault. Tommy Byrne is the best example of an amazingly gifted driver who destroyed his career all by himself. There are others.

I've stopped believing in what I call the "Cult of F1" a long time ago. To me, it's more like an elite group of 7-8 drivers and the rest are very good, and some very average.

Sorry for the rant!

pai · Sep 23, 2023

Kingkoenig said:
Yes, replace one driver who crashes his car with another driver who crashes his car.

If Schumacher's last name was Schmidt or Müller, he would not be in F1.

Yet the whole Mercedes team is impressed with his work on the simulator (I know, I know), and pushed for him to have a seat again.

Kingkoenig · Sep 23, 2023

pai said:
Yet the whole Mercedes team is impressed with his work on the simulator (I know, I know), and pushed for him to have a seat again.

I'm very skeptical. He was in F1 for 2 full seasons and didn't do anything worth noting.

I guess he has an excellent agent. That's my explanation. If he comes back to F1 and proves me wrong, all the more power to him. I have nothing against him personally.

Richard Wilks · Sep 23, 2023

Kingkoenig said:
All over the world, in different series. I'm not saying that F1 doesn't have the greatest drivers. As I wrote, Verstappen, Hamilton, Alonso, Norris, Sainz, even Leclerc and Russell (and probably Piastri) are certainly the elite of the world's drivers. But there are many other drivers (that I also mentioned) that could be replaced by other drivers and the quality of the grid would not really change.

You really think that replacing Stroll, Tsunoda, Zhou or Sargeant with four drivers from Indycar or the WEC would really lower the level of F1? If a driver like Scott Dixon had switched to F1 when it was time, he would be a World Champion by now for sure. (It's too late, now, he's 43.)

There are several drivers in F1 that are there because they have the support from a good sponsor or a manufacturer. Why these drivers have such support is explained by many reasons: family connections, good salemanship, good agent, etc. Honda has for years promoted to F1 Japanese drivers who had no business being there in the first place. It's always been like that. Remember De Cesaris? He was in F1 for a long time, even if he spent his career destroying every car he drove, but he had a close relationship with Marlboro.

Nowadays, there are only 20 seats available. You'd think that would weed out the worst of the lot, but drivers like Mazepin, Latiffi, Stroll, Tsunoda, Schumacher or Sargeant still make it in F1 over better drivers who don't have the money.

Motor racing is like that. You need money. Period. But over the years, I've seen (and you've probably seen too) that the most deserving don't always get the sponsors to make it to the top. Sometimes, it's their fault. Tommy Byrne is the best example of a amazingly gifted driver who destroyed his career all by himself. There are others.

I've stopped believing in what I call the "Cult of F1" a long time ago. To me, it's more like an elite group of 7-8 drivers and the rest are very good, and some very average.

Sorry for the rant!

Yes i do think that Stroll, Tsunoda, Zhou or Sargeant would be winning races anywhere else yes. In Fact they DID win races elsewhere, thats why they are in F1.

A lot is said about Dixon. Let's remind ourselves, that we had multiple CART/Indycar champs that came to F1, and did nothing. Just because you win a lot in indycar, doesnt mean you will be any good in F1, this was proven time and time again. The indycar field never had much depth to it, there are a few really good drivers over the years, but world class, F1 level ones that's a whole other level.

De Cesaris was actually very quick, and won quite a lot outside of F1. In F1 he was regarded as a highly valuable asset for smalls teams later in his career due to his experience and technical knowledge. His career was indeed overshadowed by his early days crashes, but he still was better than most people give him credit. That he had money backing was imaterial to that, a lot of big F1 names have backing.

You talk about Honda drivers, Nakajima was maybe ill prepared for a jump to F1, and he was rather old, but he won everything there was to win in japan prior, and was one of the fastest japanese drivers of the era. Even Yuji Ide had great results in other categories, with race wins to his credit, so what does that tell you about all the rest that didn't make it to F1 then?

You mention that "Mazepin, Latiffi, Stroll, Tsunoda, Schumacher or Sargeant still make it in F1 over better drivers who don't have the money." . Name those better drivers please. De Vries? He wiped the floor with all those "better drivers" relegated to Formula E. Look how he fared in F1...

Sure Mazepin was there thanks to his imense backing. But he finished 5th in F2, behind Mick, Liott, a certain Tsunoda, and Shwartzman, and ahead of Zhou, in the year prior to jumping to F1, with 2 wins to his name. Hardly a backmarker, right? All the other drivers are either in F1, or narrowly missed doing so, and they were all beaten by Mick in that season anyways, a guy that supposedly doesn't have a place in the grid anyways. So i wonder where are all those "great drivers" that we are missing out on...

Sure, some really good drivers never make it due to lack of money, But that happens these days at a much more grass roots level, you need a lot of money even for karting. And you can't scoop a driver from karting directly into F1. The truth is, a good F1 driver today is an investment that needs to be made from very early on. A driver who reaches F1 is a much better driver than he was when he was in the beginning of his career.

So again, i believe the best drivers today are in F1. This thing about the "pay driver" today is bollocks, because unless your father owns everything (Stroll's case) then you always have to prove yourself regardless.

Pete Conway · Sep 23, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
Where are those supposedly better drivers then?

No, i think F1 has really good drivers, so good in fact, that only the best of the best from the feeder series can have a go and have a place in the grid. The best are already in the grid, that's why its so hard to do good in F1.

Even total F1 rejects of the past proved to be really good in other series back in the day, and i can cite multiple examples of drivers with shambolic F1 careers, even accounting for their bad cars, that went on to have great careers in other series.

Also recent examples of trying to promote guys who were multiple champions in other series to F1 proved that they were nothing more than average in the middle of the F1 grid.

I think that we should look at the discipline of that 'best' driver rather than put an overall stamp 'of best of all'
The guys in F1 are very likely the best F1 drivers in the world but there are other categories that other drivers would shine brighter if the F1 drivers wold take them on, however the F1 fraternity is very protective of their drivers now and does not allow drivers to 'stray' into other series without serious consideration.
Gone are the days of the likes of Hill, Clark and JYS would be hopping from a touring car to a Can Am machine and back to an F1 car, then perhaps on for a single round of F2 to stem the boredom, perhaps mix a bit with some club racers at Brands Hatch, then we could see where a great driver is in the scheme of things.
So yeah, todays F1 drivers are truly great F1 drivers (in this era) and until they dance around the Goodwood Revival in an assortment of different machines and prove their craft, they won't be anything but Great F1 drivers in their era.
and... remember Mick Shhooomaker got beat by a girrrl in the ROC*

* Jamie Chadwick, gotta love her to bits

paracletus · Sep 23, 2023

I see that Ecclestone has just called Verstappen the "best ever driver". Not sure if MV cares but that is quite something.

It's subjective of course but BE's opinion certainly matters more than most; expected he'd say Fangio, Clark or Senna.

Kimirai · Sep 23, 2023

By the way, sorry to hear Lawson won't have the alpha tauri wheel next year

markg88 · Sep 24, 2023

paracletus said:
I see that Ecclestone has just called Verstappen the "best ever driver". Not sure if MV cares but that is quite something.

It's subjective of course but BE's opinion certainly matters more than most; expected he'd say Fangio, Clark or Senna.

Best ever?? Sooo hard to say as it's subjective and one can't really compare eras. I do think Max is an alien though and only him and Fernando have done it for me since Senna.
Schumacher and Hamilton have all the titles but, well, titles don't tell the whole story IMO.
We have some cracking young drivers in F1 at the moment, Norris, Russell, Leclerc but the one who is impressing me mightily is Piastri. It's impressive to see a rookie perform like he is when one considers drivers getting into F1 nowadays don't have the luxury of gazillions of miles of testing in the car that they are to drive, as preparation for their debuts.

Kingkoenig · Sep 24, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
Yes i do think that Stroll, Tsunoda, Zhou or Sargeant would be winning races anywhere else yes. In Fact they DID win races elsewhere, thats why they are in F1.

A lot is said about Dixon. Let's remind ourselves, that we had multiple CART/Indycar champs that came to F1, and did nothing. Just because you win a lot in indycar, doesnt mean you will be any good in F1, this was proven time and time again. The indycar field never had much depth to it, there are a few really good drivers over the years, but world class, F1 level ones that's a whole other level.

De Cesaris was actually very quick, and won quite a lot outside of F1. In F1 he was regarded as a highly valuable asset for smalls teams later in his career due to his experience and technical knowledge. His career was indeed overshadowed by his early days crashes, but he still was better than most people give him credit. That he had money backing was imaterial to that, a lot of big F1 names have backing.

You talk about Honda drivers, Nakajima was maybe ill prepared for a jump to F1, and he was rather old, but he won everything there was to win in japan prior, and was one of the fastest japanese drivers of the era. Even Yuji Ide had great results in other categories, with race wins to his credit, so what does that tell you about all the rest that didn't make it to F1 then?

You mention that "Mazepin, Latiffi, Stroll, Tsunoda, Schumacher or Sargeant still make it in F1 over better drivers who don't have the money." . Name those better drivers please. De Vries? He wiped the floor with all those "better drivers" relegated to Formula E. Look how he fared in F1...

Sure Mazepin was there thanks to his imense backing. But he finished 5th in F2, behind Mick, Liott, a certain Tsunoda, and Shwartzman, and ahead of Zhou, in the year prior to jumping to F1, with 2 wins to his name. Hardly a backmarker, right? All the other drivers are either in F1, or narrowly missed doing so, and they were all beaten by Mick in that season anyways, a guy that supposedly doesn't have a place in the grid anyways. So i wonder where are all those "great drivers" that we are missing out on...

Sure, some really good drivers never make it due to lack of money, But that happens these days at a much more grass roots level, you need a lot of money even for karting. And you can't scoop a driver from karting directly into F1. The truth is, a good F1 driver today is an investment that needs to be made from very early on. A driver who reaches F1 is a much better driver than he was when he was in the beginning of his career.

So again, i believe the best drivers today are in F1. This thing about the "pay driver" today is bollocks, because unless your father owns everything (Stroll's case) then you always have to prove yourself regardless.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I'm afraid.

There are *plenty* of drivers who don't make it far because they don't have money. It's not enough to be good to get a sponsor. You need a good agent, you need to be at the right place at the right time and you need to be good at marketing yourself. Not everybody is gifted that way.

I gave you the example of Tommy Byrne. The guy was, by all accounts, supremely talented. He was ultra fast. But he was also a working class boy who was... let's say he was a little "rough around the edges". When it was time to meet potential sponsors, it was a major disadvantage. When he tested for McLaren, Ron Dennis looked down on him, he was not "McLaren worthy", not "polished" enough.

Also, the fact that mediocre F1 drivers won in other categories can be switched around. Many former F1 drivers have tried other series and flopped. A lot of them who went to DTM, NASCAR or Indycar have never achieved anything important. Grosjean was in F1 for several seasons. He switched to Indycar and lost his drive with Andretti after two years. He hasn't won a single race and if he stays in Indy, it will be with a 2nd tier team. Or look at Massa, driving in Brazilian stock cars and running at the back of the field. Even F1 drivers who try NASCAR don't achieve anything.

Durge Driven · Sep 24, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
Mick was an F2 champion actually. Meanwhile the new darling of the english speaking pundits, Lawson, got beaten by Tsunoda again, in a track that they both know well. I don't think Lawson is a bad driver, and i also don't think Mick is either, or even Logan, but it just shows that the talent on the grid is not as bad as people make it out to be.

What do you mean beaten again ?
Liam bested him in 3 races so far.
He also gave AT their highest finish this year.
You mean in qualifying ? It's qualifying ?
Liam had used all his tyres up which is why he was slower Q2.

P.S. Make that 4 - 0

Richard Wilks · Sep 24, 2023

Kingkoenig said:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I'm afraid.

There are *plenty* of drivers who don't make it far because they don't have money. It's not enough to be good to get a sponsor. You need a good agent, you need to be at the right place at the right time and you need to be good at marketing yourself. Not everybody is gifted that way.

I gave you the example of Tommy Byrne. The guy was, by all accounts, supremely talented. He was ultra fast. But he was also a working class boy who was... let's say he was a little "rough around the edges". When it was time to meet potential sponsors, it was a major disadvantage. When he tested for McLaren, Ron Dennis looked down on him, he was not "McLaren worthy", not "polished" enough.

Also, the fact that mediocre F1 drivers won in other categories can be switched around. Many former F1 drivers have tried other series and flopped. A lot of them who went to DTM, NASCAR or Indycar have never achieved anything important. Grosjean was in F1 for several seasons. He switched to Indycar and lost his drive with Andretti after two years. He hasn't won a single race and if he stays in Indy, it will be with a 2nd tier team. Or look at Massa, driving in Brazilian stock cars and running at the back of the field. Even F1 drivers who try NASCAR don't achieve anything.

Yes, we can do that whole day, but one thing remains true, the only drivers that came from indycar and did anything in F1 were already in the european lader,and on their way to F1, Villeneuve and Montoya, and only JV became a champion. All others, even multiple champions like Zanardi and Bourdais, did nothing, and let's not even talk about Michael Andretti.

Besides i thought the point was about good drivers in F1, not good drivers in whatever else. Of course there are racing series out there that are very specific, and even an F1 driver might not excel in them, altough i think retired drivers are not a measure stick for anything.

But fair enough.

paracletus · Sep 24, 2023

Knowing what RB and marko are like, that'll almost certainly be curtains for Peres. Still easy 2nd in the DC, but indeed that car should be on the podium for most races.

Who will replace Peres

Gevatter · Sep 24, 2023

paracletus said:
Knowing what RB and marko are like, that'll almost certainly be curtains for Peres. Still easy 2nd in the DC, but indeed that car should be on the podium for most races.

Who will replace Peres

You're wrong.

https://www.si.com/fannation/racing/f1briefings/news/f1-news-christian-horner-confirms-sergio-perezs-red-bull-future-for-2024-sj4

markg88 · Sep 24, 2023

Hamilton... "I got the most points for the team"
I mean, wtf, what other driver says immature stuff like this?

Richard Wilks · Sep 24, 2023

markg88 said:
Hamilton... "I got the most points for the team"
I mean, wtf, what other driver says immature stuff like this?

You have to love it him saying that, after pushing his teammate off the track, beneffiting from team orders, and still letting his teammate hung for dry after passing him.

Shows how much Russell's performances bother him. George needs to start dishing out some himself, because for Lewis Hamilton, the only team that matters is team Hamilton.

Scottt · Sep 24, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
You have to love it him saying that, after pushing his teammate off the track, beneffiting from team orders, and still letting his teammate hung for dry after passing him.

Shows how much Russell's performances bother him. George needs to start dishing out some himself, because for Lewis Hamilton, the only team that matters is team Hamilton.

With Wolff in charge, I don’t think he can. He’s just way too close to Hamilton.

Richard Wilks · Sep 24, 2023

Scottt said:
With Wolff in charge, I don’t think he can. He’s just way too close to Hamilton.

You have a point on that yes, and i guess then Russell needs to start thinking about his future. Wolff Kept him in Williams way longer than necessary, and he missed out on the tittle winning cars, and now Mercedes is actually going more and more backwards. So he needs to ask himself, what does he have to gain by keeping the status quo in the team,and sitting there playing second fiddle at this moment? His stock is still high, but if he starts to give way, he will quickly lose the image of an elite championship material driver. So he either needs to get his elbows out himself, or start thinking about jumping ship. Let's not forget, this is his 5th year in F1 already, and as of now, he is basically stuck in the bottom points positions, fighting for podiums. And since it seems team wise, he has no better place to go, he might as well upset the status quo, because at least he can show the outside world that he is no push over. Wolff might be shown the door at some point if these performances continue, so Russell needs to show even more clearly that he is more than enough to lead the team. If it upsets Wolff, so be it. He has a contract, he might as well stick to his guns now, rather than trying to build up his reputation later.

muzikant · Sep 24, 2023

I don't understand why the big Mercedes company leaves Mr. Wolf there... since he says quite a lot of stupid things in the media. Doesn't really seem good for Mercedes' PR to me. The man is frustrated just like his golden boy

markg88 · Sep 24, 2023

I see Hamilton used his signature defense when Russell tried the overtake at 'Spoon', ie. his car suddenly understeering and forcing Russell off the track. How the hell did he not get a penalty?

Kingkoenig · Sep 24, 2023

Am I the only one who thinks the way Perez "served" his penalty was a complete joke? Hats off to Red Bull for exploiting a loophole in the rules, but how can sending a driver who is multiple laps behind the leader and then retiring the car soon after be called "a penalty"?

The FIA will have to do something about this.

2023 Formula One Japanese Grand Prix

Who are you cheering in the Japanese Grand Prix?

Max Verstappen

Sergio Perez

Carlos Sainz

Charles Leclerc

Lewis Hamilton

George Russell

Fernando Alonso

Lance Stroll

Lando Norris

Oscar Piastri

Esteban Ocon

Pierre Gasly

Alex Albon

Logan Sargeant

Kevin Magnussen

Nico Hulkenberg

Valtteri Bottas

Guanyu Zhou

Yuki Tsunoda

Liam Lawson

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Pressure Off For Piastri​

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Title On The line?​

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How To Watch The Japanese GP​

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