rFactor 2 | Early Access Look at the New BTCC Content

v4v474 · May 7, 2022

Kingkoenig said:
I wonder how much a full BTCC game would cost, considering that it's 26$ for 2 cars and 2 tracks. I don't remember how many car models there are in the BTCC, nor do I know how many tracks, but how much will it be to buy the whole field of cars in the end with this price range? Seems expensive... More expensive than releasing all cars and tracks at once, anyway.

Yes, I also think that the pack should be cheaper, but at some point you will have discounted packs with more items (when more cars come) and, specifically, during steam sales there are great deals to be had - often 25% or even 50% discounts on packs.

v4v474 · May 7, 2022

rakoczyn said:
How is that Kunos excelent quality content content can be cheaper, and overall "fair" priced, with inclusive online model that does not force you to buy content you don't need (can race with GT4 even if you don't have this DLC), and S397 can't? Is Kunos a charity?

Maaan, you have a shifter? Niiice

The packaging system which is there since the inception of rF2 in 2013 and that is ingrained in the code, does not allow for it.
It's not by choice, it would require a full re-write of large sections of the code.

Peter Kerényi · May 7, 2022

rakoczyn said:
How is that Kunos excelent quality content content can be cheaper, and overall "fair" priced, with inclusive online model that does not force you to buy content you don't need (can race with GT4 even if you don't have this DLC), and S397 can't? Is Kunos a charity?

Maaan, you have a shifter? Niiice

Indeed. rF2 is expensive in comparison to something, while often offering inferior quality/experience. And the online model is the cherry on top.

Yeah, I had a G27 before (still in a box somewhere). After I got the T300 it wasn't the best experience to drive manual cars in AC with paddles, so I could a) buy the TM shifter b) buy the Leo Bodnar adapter for the good old G27 shifter with extra buttons. The latter seemed a better fit. This wasn't so long ago though, but it was a great decision

rakoczyn · May 7, 2022

v4v474 said:
The packaging system which is there since the inception of rF2 in 2013 and that is ingrained in the code, does not allow for it.
It's not by choice, it would require a full re-write of large sections of the code.

I know it's legacy, hard to change etc.
But I am not saying that S397 are bad, lazy devs who only want to grab our cash.

I am criticizing the system, which is not very user-friendly (also in comparison to market rivals).
IDK, maybe they should take time to make rF3, or maybe rF2.5, that could use the same content, but will be free of it's past problems.

v4v474 · May 7, 2022

Kingkoenig said:
I wonder if they would sell more cars and tracks if they lowered their prices? In my case, I often pass on rFactor 2 DLCs because of their prices. I admit, I'm not a big fan of that sim anyway, but they do have some interesting content. I bought the game 2 years ago for one reason: the Le Mans circuit.

During Steam sales the DLC prices are much lower, frequently with packs at 50% discount.
This pack is more expensive - or has less of a discount - than the Q1 pack, but you will have either on the next Steam sales or later when more items are released, very attractively priced packs.
I bought 80% of my DLC (I have everything but KartSim) during Steam Sales at 50% discount.

rakoczyn · May 7, 2022

The overall interest in rF2 among simracers is big.
Just look at number of comments on articles about rf2 compared to other.

But there are still unresolved issues with the sim, and ppl are choosing other titles.

v4v474 · May 7, 2022

budgetek said:
… while rfactor 2 stuff now looks like a game from a different decade compared to AMS2 to me

People with medium level hardware get it to look like this:

MrBraindown · May 7, 2022

looking forward to this, no issue with the cost, I mean, I’d prefer it to be cheaper….. buuuuut, I think I’ll wait until all the cars and tracks are out

X-Vector · May 7, 2022

Kingkoenig said:
I wonder how much a full BTCC game would cost, considering that it's 26$ for 2 cars and 2 tracks. I don't remember how many car models there are in the BTCC, nor do I know how many tracks, but how much will it be to buy the whole field of cars in the end with this price range? Seems expensive... More expensive than releasing all cars and tracks at once, anyway.

I previously made a best case scenario guess that the price of a potential rF2 complete BTCC DLC bundle would be similar to that of a full PC/console game, i.e around €60.
Considering that the currently announced packs are discounted at 15% ("All-in") and 10% (the rest) off respectively that seems too low an estimate.
Eight cars at €4.99 a piece and seven tracks at €8.99 per circuit comes to a total of €102.85.
Even with a 25% discount this amounts to a sum of €77.13, which could be rounded down to €75.
S397 would need to offer a bundle discount of over 40% to reach the €60 price target.

Of course this is all speculation on the basis that the studio will deliver the full 2021 or 2022 BTCC grid and calendar and as mentioned by others the content could be purchased for much less during a Steam sale for those who would be willing to wait (assuming that rFactor 2 content will still be available for purchase at that point in time).

v4v474 · May 7, 2022

TheLichten said:
Funny how I have been saying this back when rf2 had only the original GT3 Pack, called Power Pack, 15€ for 5 cars (5€ bought individually). AC (even when the DLC came out), AMS and ACC are clearly cheaper, and on RE3 you could easily click together 5 cars for a cheaper price. AMS2 features the Racing in America Packs, each of them with about as much content as this back for 13€, although their "premium" tracks individually cost as much as rf2's (except Nürburgring, which is cheaper in ams2).

And with the fact you have to own all content that is on a server to use it in multiplayer, meaning you can not just turn up with one GT3 car and the current track, if the server is set up with all GT3 cars and like 5 tracks in rotation you need to buy and download all of them. This has lead to the hilarity that you can not compete in any of their Competition System™ Series you need tracks that are used in months or have already been run (which was the case for me last year, wanted to drive the Alpine Cup, but I did not have rip off Monaco, as I won't ever use it, and it had been already run and move on to the next track, but you can not sign up). Technically they could avoid the issue with tracks by making a rfmod for each week, which is what basically any league does, but S397 is too lazy for that.
But to get back on point, out of the modern sims only AC shares the trait of requiring all content for multiplayer, where it presents a none issue due to DLC being borderline free today (or heck, the server may run mods only anyway).

The thing this all leads to, that when you think iRacing (or iRental as I like to call it), rf2 can suddenly get very close in cost. If you want to do Endurance Racing in iRacing, you need a car (12$), a track (lets go with 15$), and a subscription (13$ for a month). Most likely you want to buy way more, but 40$ is enough. rF2 on the other hand, if your league runs GT3, LMP2 and DPi you need 36€ for the GT3, and while you could by the Oreca 07, Ligier JSP2 and Cadillac DPi for 5€ individually (totaling 15€), you might just buy the Endurance Pack for 36€ so in case your next league runs LMP3 or GTE as a side class you can continue competing. Plus you need the track, 9€-12€. That is 81€. For steelmanning purposes, 60€ if you short cut the cars, though it will remain cheaper to then buy the bundle to complete it rather then buying the LMP3 and GTE individually (2 LMP3, 6 GTE, 40€ total, so rebuying the three cars is still cheaper, and you get a McLaren Senna in the bundle too). 51€ if your track is in the base game (like Silverstone) or is a mod track.
Oh yeah, you need to pay for the base game too at some point.
Where this gets even worse is that when they release new cars (like the M4 and Ligier in the Q1) update, if you want to continue to drive your trusty Oreca 07 you will need to buy these cars, otherwise, similar to letting your iRacing license run out, you won't be able to use it anymore (outside of looking at it in the showroom, or single player, though more then iRental I guess). That LMP2 you bought back in 2018 for 15€, the Two Strong Pack to get the Aston (and the McLaren, as it was used at the time, though harddrive hogger today) for 8€ (If my memory is not incorrect), Endurance Bundle 2 for 9€ to get the Ligier JSP2 (which sucks, lol), DPi and Vette, having to buy the Ferrari 488 GTE individually for 5€, and then buy the Ligier JSP3 (or the entire Q1 pack, although LMP3 often not needed), 37€, not including that there are series using GT3 instead of GTE, original for 15€, challenger for 15€, 5€ for Ferrari, and 5€ for the M4, another 40€, and then tracks... and this entire time you are just driving the same LMP2 (77€), otherwise you can not continue.
Sure, iRacing still leaves this in the dust, this is accumulated over a 4 year period, just the subscription in the cheapest option is 400€, plus the 50% more expensive tracks. Although there is more content rf2 releases outside of the content I calculated above, like FE, the important point is:

The DLC might cost today 36€ to do GT3 (for example), but you will have to keep buying more cars to continue using your old cars, practically paying a subscription fee. The only thing that keeps this sort of cheap is the fact that S397 had been slow to release content, this seems to have changed.

Tl;Dr:
- rF2 has been prized at 5€ per individual car and 9€ per track since back 2017/18
-Even back then it was pricier (and by quite a bit) then all other sims barring iRacing
-AMS2 has the US Packs with similar content amount to this bundle for 13€, but also sells some tracks individually for the same price as rf2
-This back is pricier due to the number of tracks (despite the lack of cars), and minimal discount of the bundle (which has been hit or miss with them)
-As you need on rf2 to own all content that is used in a server it requires you to buy cars (and with bad organizers even tracks) you won't use
-rF2 can quickly cost more then iRacing (initially) to get started in GT and or Endurance Racing
-This can result in you having to buy future DLC to keep using old content in multiplayer, while this effective subscription will still leave iRacing becoming quickly more expensive to play then rf2, it still can accumulate a lot of money in the long run

Some of the reasoning is correct, but during the several Steam Sales you can get packs at huge discounts, up to 50%.
GT3 pack with all cars was € 13,90 or something like that, track expansion pack also was at 50% discount with 4 premier tracks (Sebring, Nords, Lemans and Monaco).
Endurance Pack, ditto.
If budget is an issue, patience is your friend.
For instance, budget is not an issue for me, but I bought 80% of the DLC in sales periods, saving between 25% and 50% on its cost.

v4v474 · May 7, 2022

X-Vector said:
I previously made a best scenario guess that the price of a potential rF2 complete BTCC DLC bundle would be similar to that of a full PC/console game, i.e around €60.
Considering that the currently announced packs are discounted at 15% ("All-in") and 10% (the rest) off respectively that seems too low an estimate.
Eight cars at €4.99 a piece and seven tracks at €8.99 per circuit comes to a total of €102.85.
Even with a 25% discount this amounts to a sum of €77.13, which could be rounded down to €75.
S397 would need to offer a bundle discount of over 40% to reach the €60 price target.

Of course this is all speculation on the basis that the studio will deliver the full 2021 or 2022 BTCC grid and calendar and as mentioned by others the content could be purchased for much less during a Steam sale for those who would be willing to wait (assuming that rFactor 2 content will still be available for purchase at that point in time).

It's safe to speculate that Quarterly Packs releasing BTCC content will have a lower discount than when they - hopefully they will get to their point - can offer a pack with ALL BTCC content.

Bela Valko · May 7, 2022

mantasisg said:
My bubble is old T300 mounted on VERY old half broken desk, simple ISO chair (also old, I am surprised how durable that one is) and aging PC, I am still happy with my 10year old phone. If we are gonna flex who has less, I am competitive at it.

The bubble is thinking that sim devs work should be very cheap. If you gonna cheap down sim devs, you are gonna get cheap simulations, cheaply simulated items.

This being said I'd agree with opinion shared here already and in some other places, that the pack that consists all five items should be a touch cheaper.

It is still way better than iRacing, which is more expensive to begin with, and then on top you pay once more just for access. On the other hand, their development is very robust.

Well then you made a generalization in your earlier comment when you hinted that everybody has an expensive rig which is not the case. Btw the T300 was a middle-class, I wouldn't say cheap wheel (>$400), it's a tear above (double the price) the mainstream.

(I had one years ago, the motor died in a month without even using it

good for you)
Sim devs should not work for cheap but lot of people seem to forget that this game is 9 years old and in this timeframe Kunos released two successful titles while people still complaining more or less about the same things in rF2 for years and eventually the time comes when you no longer can milk the audiences as much as before.
If let's say S397 would sell the DLCs for half the price of the current situation it's possible they would make more revenue because the game would be more accessible for more people and as a result even the current playerbase would be happier with a larger playerbase and a healthy multiplayer ecosystem which in turn would attract even more people.

Comparing rF2 to iRacing is only valid because they are both simulators but their business model and vision is/was completely different. rF2 was born as a barebone simulator, ISI was hoping that they can cash in while the community make a lot of mods for the game, but then they realized it doesn't work like that like in rF1 times so they sold it to S397, they have been trying to convert it into a commercial product but it takes too long and it's too painful and since the takeover of S397 two completely new titles came to the marketplace while S397 was busy redoing/patching the UI and other smaller things. In the meanwhile iRacing is a competition system with all the necessary background in place doing everything at least OK and doing the competitive side of things, the multiplayer excellently.

Now from this I came to the conclusion that people only complain about prices when they're not sure about the future usage/usability of the content. In rF2 it's painful to pay a lot of money for 1-2 cars/tracks if you only do hotlaps or play against the AI once a week. On the other hand on iRacing people pay for a car or a track without second thoughts because it's certain that you can use that content in the future in races. On iR people buy and drive cars/tracks they don't even like because that's secondary when you race against others in a competition.

v4v474 · May 7, 2022

And for those who say stuff like "I am not buying DLC because I do not want to support MSG", I have this final remark on this thread:
I don't know what is true and what is not true about MSG.
That is what Courts are for and every single day there are Court filings made which end up in nothing, either for lack of evidence OR for lack of actual foundation (note: the corporate world is dirty by default).
Also, if we take for granted what a few small time YT say as "right", then the Earth is Flat, Putin is a saint, COVID was a hoax, etc... Time (and as I said, the Courts) will tell.
The bottom line is that this has zero impact on how I look at rFactor 2, which I thoroughly enjoy playing.
Moreover, the guys that work at S397 deserve my support, because it's Studio 397 who pay them a salary, not MSG, so any sales of rFactor 2's DLC will keep their jobs and their livelihoods.
Boycotting rFactor 2 because of something that people do not fully grasp, of which people do not have direct knowledge, even if true, only causes harm to S397, its employees and will undermine the possibility of S397 being picked up by another Software Publisher if MSG effectively goes down.
This is why mixing up things which are not directly related to rFactor 2 and Studio 397 is wrong.
Enjoy the game if you want to, buy the DLC if you want to, but stop with the big worded proclamations about "not supporting a title owned by MSG" when - I don't even need to have direct evidence - 99.9% of the people who come with that nonsense, pirate or pirated (ie. steal/stole) at some point of their lives, movies, music and software.

R.Man · May 7, 2022

Kingkoenig said:
I wonder if they would sell more cars and tracks if they lowered their prices? In my case, I often pass on rFactor 2 DLCs because of their prices. I admit, I'm not a big fan of that sim anyway, but they do have some interesting content. I bought the game 2 years ago for one reason: the Le Mans circuit.

Imho instead of closing...they could collect a load of money by cutting every DLC to half price. But still proud and arrogant until the end. Kunos has the best selling ssim titles for a reason...

Patrik Marek said:
I'm sure they have access to numbers , so they might have a much better idea of how much you make

yes cheaper price means it will sell more, but you will earn less per unit sold, I'm sure there is a sweet spot somewhere but I agree, that it should be bit cheaper

Selling more is more than money, they will have more players so more exposure via youtube, mouth to mouth etc. Money attract money

b)b said:
This thread is another proof that simracers are utterly broke, after spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on shiny hardware for bragging in /r/simracing.
Unlike cool new hardware that you can touch and feel with bare hands or feet, software should grow on trees.
"Will...simrace...for...food..."

Not because you can afford pricey sim rig that mean you have to buy anything else 2x the price. So sim racers should buy coffee at 20 $ the cup?

Peter Kerényi said:
Indeed. rF2 is expensive in comparison to something, while often offering inferior quality/experience. And the online model is the cherry on top.

Yeah, I had a G27 before (still in a box somewhere). After I got the T300 it wasn't the best experience to drive manual cars in AC with paddles, so I could a) buy the TM shifter b) buy the Leo Bodnar adapter for the good old G27 shifter with extra buttons. The latter seemed a better fit. This wasn't so long ago though, but it was a great decision

This ^^

rakoczyn said:
The overall interest in rF2 among simracers is big.
Just look at number of comments on articles about rf2 compared to other.

But there are still unresolved issues with the sim, and ppl are choosing other titles.

this^^

bluey · May 7, 2022

gianlucaP said:
I don't like their prices, never did. I think this kind of price cut out lot of young kids who don't work and can't afford to buy their packs.
Should be cheaper. The playerbase could increase.

Well go to I Racing or Irenting as you never really own the cars unless you pay the sub fees every year
2 tcr cars @ $11.95 each
the same tracks @ $14.95 each = total cost $53.80 So rf2 cost $26
looks like a bargain price in my view
regards to all i do like iracing though

X-Vector · May 7, 2022

v4v474 said:
Some of the reasoning is correct, but during the several Steam Sales you can get packs at huge discounts, up to 50%.
GT3 pack with all cars was € 13,90 or something like that, track expansion pack also was at 50% discount with 4 premier tracks (Sebring, Nords, Lemans and Monaco).
Endurance Pack, ditto.
If budget is an issue, patience is your friend.
For instance, budget is not an issue for me, but I bought 80% of the DLC in sales periods, saving between 25% and 50% on its cost.

Steam sale discounts are not specific to rF2; for instance, currently there is a 60% discount on all ACC content except the recent Challengers pack (10% off).
This means you can buy the complete bundle for a total of less than €50 which if I have not miscounted covers 43 cars and 19 tracks.

Botmeister · May 7, 2022

eg01st · May 7, 2022

Well I'm going to say it - it's too much for Q2 pack. Add up the usual individual track prices and 2 cars, it's not even a 3 Euro discount for Q2 pack. Q1 pack price was waaay more appealing.

BrettSinclair1 · May 7, 2022

2 cars, 2 tracks.
Why do modern sims always try be master of none?

Gevatter · May 7, 2022

rakoczyn said:
The overall interest in rF2 among simracers is big.
Just look at number of comments on articles about rf2 compared to other.

But there are still unresolved issues with the sim, and ppl are choosing other titles.

I always say that. As long as prople complain, they want yomething to get better because they want to use it. The people who don't comment anymore are the ones you've lost.

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