A thread to help noobs learn how much to steer

This thread kinda goes along with this other one. I've been trying to figure out how much to steer to maximize turning force. In other words, how do you know when the tires are at the optimal slip angle? I've been playing with three possible points with the Toyota GT86, and I'm wondering which point is correct, if any. I have yet to test on the skid pad, but that's on my to-do list. The three points I've been using are:
  1. Maximum FFB
  2. When the tires start to squeal (not far from point #1)
  3. When the tires are squealing, but before the sliding sound
The car is a little easier to control at point #1, and feels more hooked up, but it also seems a little slower at the same time. It can be harder to keep heat in the tires at #1, but is it alright to just keep lowering tire pressure until the temperature stays in the green?
 
This thread kinda goes along with this other one. I've been trying to figure out how much to steer to maximize turning force. In other words, how do you know when the tires are at the optimal slip angle? I've been playing with three possible points with the Toyota GT86, and I'm wondering which point is correct, if any. I have yet to test on the skid pad, but that's on my to-do list. The three points I've been using are:
  1. Maximum FFB
  2. When the tires start to squeal (not far from point #1)
  3. When the tires are squealing, but before the sliding sound
The car is a little easier to control at point #1, and feels more hooked up, but it also seems a little slower at the same time. It can be harder to keep heat in the tires at #1, but is it alright to just keep lowering tire pressure until the temperature stays in the green?

• Firstly I think it's important to note that how much we steer to get to the maximum grip point is highly variable and depends on momentary car balance, trying to find optimum steering angle for a car without grasping it's dynamics is a sure way to confusion and slow learning.

Now a car in perfect balance at the best slip angle for the rear tyres will require exactly 0° of steering to corner at maximum grip. Most often cars have understeery balance and that requires some positive steering angle. The more understeer the car has at given moment the more angle is needed.

Car's momentary balance can change depending on driver inputs and car's rotaion (stance):
- Lightly braking creates forward weight transfer reducing understeer and the need to steer. Similarly full throttle can also reduce understeer and steer needed.
- Rotation is a bit more difficult: since rear tyres need a slip angle to generate lateral foce, in corner whole car is rotated in relation to the direction of movement. The more of this "slip" we have the less understeery balance of the car is. This is why good car "hooks" into the corner not needing much steering and understeery one just plows straight needing a lot of steering to turn. Also it means we need a little less steering mid corner than on entry.

For example: cars like lotus 2-11 or Audi quattro need A LOT of steering input on throttle since their balance during acceleration is far into understeer, while more powerful BMW's need little to no steering to corner.


• Now After we know that every corner will need different steering angle, we can start fishing for one that gives us the most front grip. Real and sim drivers do it by slightly moving the steering left and right around the best slip angle to get a feeling for grip. For well balanced racecars the car will respond with visible yaw to small steering input without moving off the racing line. This is because rear tyres are on the limit so a small deflection right or left does not change the lateral force by much. But for street cars that are understeery it's much more difficult as the car won't yaw visibly.

Visual cues are the bread and butter of simracing, it's important too keep car's yaw in mind during practice to develop a sense for grip.
Newbie drivers without experience in visual cues are left with more direct inputs like sound and FFB to help, but remember that they are limited and should not be depended on too much. I think in the beginning it's best to just experiment and find general angles that work for given position in the corner (entry/mid/exit), then keep building up the visual sensitivity.

Here are 4 ways that can help finding optimal steering for maximum grip that can help with practice:
- FFB, as stereo above mentions, usually best grip is made right after peak force, but not too much, some cheaper wheels struggle with generating enough difference so turning on "understeer effect" in options might be a good idea, where FFB drops hard after going past max grip steering angle.
- Reduce the understeer, either by setup, brakes or aggressive throttle use. It's easier to get a feeling for the car that way. Use the information from first part (above) to anticipate what kind of steering you should need so that you won't wonder blindly.
- Sound: in AC by default tyres start to squeal pretty early. So when turning too much, the noise is too loud already and it's hard to determine how much over the edge are you. By increasing "tyre skid volume onset" you delay the moment tyres start to squeal. At 200% they will start to squeal when tyres are reaching max grip. Personally i'd recommend a setting of around150%.
- Skidpad tests, don't leave it at "to do", download a circular map and drive. Stabilize the car in circle and slowly increase speed. Watch for tyre pressures thou, don't turn for too long or the car will start to understeer from overheat. Watch out for too low initial pressures** too as they can mask wrong (too big) steering angles by giving you grip that was lost from wrong setup.
Do test off throttle and full throttle steering too. It's much easier to do when you don't have to worry about apexes.

Lastly there are apps that visualize front grip and (IMHO) provide a nice substitution for g-forces that way.

(**) - It is generally advisable to focus on pressures not temperatures in AC especially when tyres are under-heated,

ps: ayy that was a wall of text and a half, sorry if you found it too much... I'm curious what kind of a response this kind of "guide" will get :) It was great practice for writing english that got out of hand... hahaha
edit: Stylistic corrections, I'm so bad at noticing such errors...
 
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This is why good car "hooks" into the corner not needing much steering and understeery one just plows straight needing a lot of steering to turn. Also it means we need a little less steering mid corner than on entry.

I am alway looking for small steering imputs, but have never been able to quite unerstand why.
:thumbsup:

Real and sim drivers do it by slightly moving the steering left and right around the best slip angle to get a feeling for grip. For well balanced racecars the car will respond with visible yaw to small steering input without moving off the racing line. This is because rear tyres are on the limit so a small deflection right or left does not change the lateral force by much.

Again well put, in sims, this is exactly what i find difficult to achieve where in real life i can and do,
do this constantly.:thumbsup:

- Sound: in AC by default tyres start to squeal pretty early, so when turning too much the noise is too loud already and it's hard to determine how much over the edge are you. By increasing "tyre skid volume onset" you delay the moment tyres start to squeal. At 200% they will start to squeal when tyres are reaching max grip. Personally i'd recommend a setting of around150%.

Never used that that setting with much conviction before, always wondered what the
real use of that setting was for.:thumbsup:
 
• Firstly I think it's important to note that how much we steer to get to the maximum grip point is highly variable and depends on momentary car balance, trying to find optimum steering angle for a car without grasping it's dynamics is a sure way to confusion and slow learning.

Now a car in perfect balance at the best slip angle for the rear tyres will require exactly 0° of steering to corner at maximum grip. Most often cars have understeery balance and that requires some positive steering angle. The more understeer the car has at given moment the more angle is needed.

Car's momentary balance can change depending on driver inputs and car's rotaion (stance):
- Lightly braking creates forward weight transfer reducing understeer and the need to steer. Similarly full throttle can also reduce understeer and steer needed.
- Rotation is a bit more difficult: since rear tyres need a slip angle to generate lateral foce, in corner whole car is rotated in relation to the direction of movement. The more of this "slip" we have the less understeery balance of the car is. This is why good car "hooks" into the corner not needing much steering and understeery one just plows straight needing a lot of steering to turn. Also it means we need a little less steering mid corner than on entry.

For example: cars like lotus 2-11 or Audi quattro need A LOT of steering input on throttle since their balance during acceleration is far into understeer, while more powerful BMW's need little to no steering to corner.


• Now After we know that every corner will need different steering angle, we can start fishing for one that gives us the most front grip. Real and sim drivers do it by slightly moving the steering left and right around the best slip angle to get a feeling for grip. For well balanced racecars the car will respond with visible yaw to small steering input without moving off the racing line. This is because rear tyres are on the limit so a small deflection right or left does not change the lateral force by much. But for street cars that are understeery it's much more difficult as the car won't yaw visibly.

Visual cues are the bread and butter of simracing, it's important too keep car's yaw in mind during practice to develop a sense for grip.
Newbie drivers without experience in visual cues are left with more direct inputs like sound and FFB to help, but remember that they are limited and should not be depended on too much. I think in the beginning it's best to just experiment and find general angles that work for given position in the corner (entry/mid/exit), then keep building up the visual sensitivity.

Here are 4 ways that can help finding optimal steering for maximum grip that can help with practice:
- FFB, as stereo above mentions, usually best grip is made right after peak force, but not too much, some cheaper wheels struggle with generating enough difference so turning on "understeer effect" in options might be a good idea, where FFB drops hard after going past max grip steering angle.
- Reduce the understeer, either by setup, brakes or aggressive throttle use. It's easier to get a feeling for the car that way. Use the information from first part (above) to anticipate what kind of steering you should need so that you won't wonder blindly.
- Sound: in AC by default tyres start to squeal pretty early. So when turning too much, the noise is too loud already and it's hard to determine how much over the edge are you. By increasing "tyre skid volume onset" you delay the moment tyres start to squeal. At 200% they will start to squeal when tyres are reaching max grip. Personally i'd recommend a setting of around150%.
- Skidpad tests, don't leave it at "to do", download a circular map and drive. Stabilize the car in circle and slowly increase speed. Watch for tyre pressures thou, don't turn for too long or the car will start to understeer from overheat. Watch out for too low initial pressures** too as they can mask wrong (too big) steering angles by giving you grip that was lost from wrong setup.
Do test off throttle and full throttle steering too. It's much easier to do when you don't have to worry about apexes.

Lastly there are apps that visualize front grip and (IMHO) provide a nice substitution for g-forces that way.

(**) - It is generally advisable to focus on pressures not temperatures in AC especially when tyres are under-heated,

ps: ayy that was a wall of text and a half, sorry if you found it too much... I'm curious what kind of a response this kind of "guide" will get :) It was great practice for writing english that got out of hand... hahaha
edit: Stylistic corrections, I'm so bad at noticing such errors...

Thanks Pawel!!! This is a great post with a lot to chew on. I've added it to my list of bookmarked guides. :)

Setting the "tyre skid volume onset" as you suggested seemed to help. At least for the understeering Toyota GT86 I was testing with, the optimal grip occurred right around where the sound started, which was past the peak FFB (thanks Stereo). The grip was pretty insensitive in that region though. I also found that tire pressure was more important than temperature for getting good grip.
 
Look at replays, a lot. It's easy enough to tell gross understeer because the car should feel like it's aquaplaning, and oversteer is easy to tell if you keep an eye on the wheel vs where you are in a corner, but subtle understeer is a lot harder - and what can feel like understeer in the car might actually be a four-wheel drift, which is about as good as it gets. If you get the sense the nose of the car is moving across the track rather more than you're telling it to, check what the rear is doing.

Basically though, enough steering is the minimum it takes to get round a corner on the best line. Braking & accelerating in the right places are more important, you can change how a car steers with both - and I can't speak for FWD cars, but for nicely balanced RWD you won't find yourself steering all that heavily unless it's the entry to a hairpin, you're basically just setting up to steer on the throttle. That's when you might want to pay more attention to the tyre squeal, but even then - if the car isn't making it round the corner then you're probably going a bit too fast, never mind the squeal :p
 
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Throwing in some input:
The GT86 is not the best car for practice as the tyres always end up with positive camber while cornering. This makes the tyres slide "weirdly" no matter what you do.
I would recommend the maserati gt4 or the Mazda mx-5 cup.

To steering input in general:
You can't bring it down to a specific angle. It's all too dependant on everything else.
First question for each turn is:
Shorter way or higher speed? Will a slight drift that makes you lose out on acceleration and maximum lateral grip gain you time or not since it will make you take a shorter path due to more rotation of the car? Or a longer path if you drift too much and just go wide.
Different cars will change that! So each car needs a specific style to be really fast. The GT86, while being a nice and fun car, won't teach you for real as the suspension geometry isn't "racey". Also it doesn't have enough power to give you the choice of drifting.

I once set up the mx-5 for maximum grip and while I beat my personal best with it, someone else beat me by over a second around magione.
He made the car drift with the default setup and due to less camber the rear tyres could accelerate while slightly drifting. They had the full tyre patch to push forward. So while my cornering speed was indeed higher, the slight drift, tighter turning radius and shorter path with less camber to initiate the slide and allowing for acceleration made the default setup a lot faster!

Mazda mx-5 and maserati gt4 both give you everything of a real race car :)

Everything else got said by the others :p
 
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understeer in the car might actually be a four-wheel drift
Personally I never felt in all the simulators that the car never truly lose grip. The understeer feel like static 4 wheel drift while having the steering locked. It's like if the rear yaw & the front have limited grip in motion.

In my opinion, it's an important factor to understand when playing any racing games. :thumbsup:
 
Personally I never felt in all the simulators that the car never truly lose grip. The understeer feel like static 4 wheel drift while having the steering locked. It's like if the rear yaw & the front have limited grip in motion.

In my opinion, it's an important factor to understand when playing any racing games. :thumbsup:

The only racing sim I've known I was 4w-drifting in was GPL ( and I guess NR2003 ), and that was because the slip angles got up to ludicrous levels :) you'd definitely know if you had a motion rig, but otherwise it's down to your brain judging your velocity vector vs where the car is pointing I think - pure wheel FFB is not really any good at telling you the entire car is sliding most of the time. If the steering's gone light but you're starting to correct for oversteer then maybe, but I've only had that in one car.

Or alternatively you find out when you mess with the throttle a bit, but that's knowing for next time round that corner.

One of the Lotus Exiges ( I think the v6 ) used to be an interesting vehicle to train in, but I haven't tried it on tyre model 10 so it might be awful now.
 
I'm not referring to the car feeling when playing. It's how the car move & behave while watching the replay in different angle.

You can use real life moose test as a reference & how differently it behave compare to a simulator. How the grip, inertia, suspension geometry interact each other is fascinating.
https://www.youtube.com/user/km77video

How it react in the entry phase
How the understeer occurs
How long it take for the front to respond
What cause the car to roll over
What cause the oversteer

The biggest similarity is how grip respond to inertia based on the setup while completely trash driving inputs. Basically you need a balanced direction to make the car drivable.
 
Thanks again to everyone for your contributions here. I had an interesting experience last night that pertains to this thread. I've been racing in the SRS Audi TT RS America series (it's roughly a GT3 car I think). As the race was about to start, my son accidentally pushed some buttons on the projector remote control that caused my computer and AC to throw a fit (I have no idea how that all worked). I recovered the video just in time to start the race, but I had no audio.

They say that when you lose the use of one sense, your other senses become heightened. I had effectively lost my sense of hearing. As I raced for an hour in silence, my other senses really did improve. I got more feedback about yaw and rotation rate than usual from looking at the scene ahead of me. I also depended more on FFB. I had recently watched that Jackie Stewart driver's education video that someone recently posted in a RD front page thread. I kept thinking back to his comment of "light is right" when it comes to FFB. That actually did seem to work pretty well for me. If I was feeling strong FFB, it generally meant that I was fighting against the car instead of working with it (apart from the crazy roller coaster turns at Mosport). Also, I found that his advice to be smooth really did help as well, especially for carrying speed into the turn after the back straight. As an aside, it always amazes me how much more grip you can get out of a car or kart by being smooth.

It turned out that my lap times without sound were as good as or better than my lap times with sound. I wasn't working my tires as hard, but that's to be expected since I had to drive more conservatively. I had to focus more on my other senses and following a good racing line, which made up the difference.

I guess I just wanted to share with you the strange experience of a back marker racing without sound, that other cues, especially visual feedback, are very useful for figuring out how to turn. Also, I appreciate the blinking shift lights much more now.
 
I guess I just wanted to share with you the strange experience of a back marker racing without sound, that other cues, especially visual feedback, are very useful for figuring out how to turn. Also, I appreciate the blinking shift lights much more now.

The TT Cup car is more like a GT4 iirc, still a GT car though.

I change gear solely on audio, so having confused signals there really messes me up - I was racing with a twitch streamer with his in-car audio on in the background & couldn't work out which gear I was in half the time ( so I ended up running into him at one point! ). I don't think in modern AC you should be paying any attention to tyre audio though, well tuned FFB and good spacial perception should tell you enough ( along with monitoring tyre pressures to check you're not baking them - live tyre surface temps are a bit cheaty ), unlike say, iRacing.
 
Wow, so much to learn from this topic alone as a new player.
I never felt like racing games where my thing but yet here I am.:)
I don't know how it happened but from a mmo only player to buy rocket league items to racing games:D I don't have any experience in this genre of crates games but I'm having so much fun learning, especially that there's so many physical/mathematical aspects in it, and I always liked this kind of stuff where you can buy items from rocket league.
I don't even remember how I found myself around here but I'm pretty sure I must've been directed here by one of my friends or colleagues or something. Nevertheless I'm glad I did and lets' go!
Thanks for all your posts here:D got a lot of studying to do
 
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