PC1 Banned for no reason!

[Andy_J]

In time like these, one would like popcorn to enjoy the show

One would would one?

 

[Nathan Robinson]

a little strange i know, but i prefer klondike bars and a scotch on the rocks during my shows

 

[David Ignjatovic]

. I'm smart enough to know that pcars is not a complete sim,

Where's it lacking?

 

[David Ignjatovic]

ouch, I got banned from VirtuaLR....I had 113 posts with 47 likes, there was also a number of people questioning the notion that I was a troll simply for claiming pcars is arcade.

 

[Nathan Robinson]

Where's it lacking?

i think we both know where its lacking. my biggest issue is the control you have under highspeed braking, its too easy. That said, the diffrence betweenyou and me is that i am going to sit tight on my judgement until final release. Im sorry you got banned from virtualr, it is the first site i go to every day. im sure going on there and saying it is arcade doesnt help because its not just an arcade game. it has quite a few sim aspects so you are just trying to stir the pot. i dont know who you post under, but a ban seems over the top unless you are the guy they repeatedly asked to stop making false claims.you seem like a very negative person at times and im sure people get tired of reading that stuff. they posted a newvideo of bsnismo's rfactor 2 vid and everyone loves it, except me but i dont want to rain on their parade with negative comments. hes basically polishing a turd with that video making it look and feel like something its not, but i realize this is my opinion and im not an expert so why rattle the cages.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

i the guy they repeatedly asked to stop making false claims.y.

I was pcarsphyxexpert.....and I never made any false claims.
I was told to STFU and F off etc, but no action was taken against those blatant offenders.

Arcade/simcade, it doesn't really matter, it is a sim or it isn't.
I'm surprised you have so much faith and are falling for their "best phyx in class are on the way" considering all they've made since GTR2 is arcade stuff.

 

[Kazumi]

Arcade for me is stuff like Ridge Racer, Daytona, Crazy Taxi, maybe newer stuff like Split Second or Blur (that's more a Funracer, just with real cars though) and whatever else there is...

In the classic arcade racing games there are driving techniques you have to use to be quick, like extreme drifts after downshifting or braking without the drawbacks that arise on real cars after or while those actions are taken. Newer games I dunno what they try to do, but obviously some people like it.

None of those engines is capable of sim handling.

Everyone can have its opinion, how I rate them is quite simply and straight forward though. Sim is when there is car simulated no matter how good or bad it handles with many parameters which functions make them act accordingly (gravity, mass, newton's law and so on) (in theory don't have to be drivable or even real time, but I would prefer it ), Arcade most cars are "objects", so to speak, with very simply physics parameters. Everything in between we can argue...

Of course you can also always take just one element like braking. But IMHO one has to look (if possible, that is) of what actually happens, the traction the car got, engine braking / lift off oversteer and so on. In the end all parts must fit at least for a - whatever you want to call it - "full" sim. Obviously taking one "small" thing out (damage, weather,... whatever) doesn't make it automatically less a sim though according to most peoples definition.

In that most driving techniques apply to real driving / racing but as I said some things are usually not represented perfectly.


IMHO while I don't agree on some stuff David said at least he explains why he thinks that way... so I (we) could agree / disagree on some points and (judging by pro race drivers and my own experience) the braking is naturally an essential part of racing. So it must feel and handle good (until it don't feel and handle good!)

 

[James Woods]

I think it's only honest to concede in this thread that all should perhaps accept that the term "sim" really means uncompromising effort to model the behaviour of the real machines and all laws and physics of the real world, and for this to be the obsession. Can we do that? Up until now i think that's how its been defined... until a game turned up that said it's a sim but some disagree and now "sim" is all so "confusing" and forever moving.

So is pCARS that? From what I've played, it simply cannot be said to have that kind of fidelity, and I'd like to know if anyone in this thread can accept my definition of a sim above, and then tell me if they think pCARS handling belongs in that category? I'm not a heavy sim racer (but do have triple screens and a T500), but i've played enough to know when a race game isn't feeling right, and i bought pCARS, tried it out completely neutral, and as soon as i did a lap, wanted to laugh because I was told this was a full on sim... *baffled*

If you want a racer wrapped up pretending to be a sim, all the more power to you, but don't disrespect the work of those true companies out there who are genuinely trying to make hardcore sims by putting this game in that same category, not at this stage, not with Shift 2 as it's legacy, not with Ian Bell as it's lead man (quite the bullshitter), not with an alpha you can play right now and see how non-sim and weird it feels.

The only thing I will add is that maybe SMS will perform some miracle and it ends up somehow becoming a real sim one day, but it's coming on consoles guys, come on now, that really now means that chances of it being the real deal is very low.

So can we agree on this? Play pCARS, love it, buy it, race your friends in it, make your desktop background with a screenshot from it. But let's not really call it a sim at this stage just because Ian Bell (someone not worth trusting a word he says) said it is going to have the most advanced physics ever for the 3rd time now (shift 1 and 2). Let's judge it by what it is as of today,

For me, it's quite the shambles right now, and in this case i will gladly accept that my saying this is harsh because it is an Alpha. Yet all signs truly do point to pCARS being beneath what I consider a sim by my definition above.

I have a feeling this post won't go down too well, but judging by some of the extreme opinions here, I am expecting that. I'd rather have a proper debate though, if willing.

 

[Nathan Robinson]

i disagree, i dont think anyone is calling it hardcore simulator. maybe a simulator in general as it has tuning options, actual cars and tracks, fuel usage, tire wear, etc. the physics are a bit wonky, but that doesnt mean its not trying to simulate actual racing. maybe it will come around maybe it wont but to judge it now as if it is the final product is absurd. if you say this thing drives like a turd thats fine but to say this thing does and always will drive like a turd is not fine. surely you cant predict the future.

 

[martinsalat]

james woods: Ian Bell (someone not worth trusting a word he says) Ian Bell as it's lead man (quite the bullshitter)
did you know him personally?i don't think that you call him that face to face.

 

[Mapu]

Following your argumentation Nathan, it would make pcars look like a pale example of a what could be achived with simulation software today. It doesn't fullfill the set standards, you say it yourself - "physics are a bit wonky" and name the minimum standards. Nobody is reading tea leaves here; only judging the current state of the game and giving a simple prognosis by putting one and one together.

What is a hardcore simulator? There is nothing hardcore to it! It's either a simulation software or it is not. Any poor or false compromise being made to a simulator declares it to being not a simulator. Simple.

A few bitter words from James, yes, but "martinsalat", you forgot or intentionally cut out the important bit of what James said, namely that Ian Bell broke his word several times before. You cannot deny that.

 

[Nathan Robinson]

Pcars is quite an emotional rollercoaster for me. I have good days and bad days with it. I got some time to run with it a bit more tonight and I'm going around anhalt with the formula b car and just not feeling it. At this point I start thouroughly considering what guys like david have been saying, and he's right, I cant feel the car for crap and something about it just feels weird. Bummer, I feel ashamed that I have started agreeing with the otherside.

Then....I remember that I forgot to adjust the force feedback and tire force. So I go into the settings and push the sliders to max for both ffb and tire force. Then I pick the Apollo and decide to go out on the most developed track at this stage, Watkins. I get in the car and head out of the pits and instantly notice the difference in the feeling through the wheel. I can feel the car planted on the road through my wheel which is the first key to immersion. This peaks my interest a little bit so I decide to give it 2 good laps before I quit out and try another car. 10 laps later my wife hollered for dinner. If pcars can hit this feeling with all cars at all tracks, I will for sure race this in a league format. The apollo at watkins felt much more believable and exciting than this saleen mod i've been running in a league on rfactor, and tons of people turn out for those saleen races. If I come into turn one too fast, my brakes dont magically slow me down in time, I've overshot it so many times and almost always early on in the run, when my brakes are still cold. For the first time in a sim/game I really notice a difference in braking under cold and hot temps (I still feel like there should be more wheel action under braking). There are many times that I run wide on exit because i'm going too fast which causes me to slow a bit and then it feels grippy. but still so enjoyable to me that i keep doing lap after lap after lap. I have driven so many unrealisticly grippy mods for rfactor and they are successful as well so I believe pcars has the potential to do the same.

That is why I continue hold out hope for pcars. It really has some positive moments that make me smile and enjoy my time with it.



EDIT: I have also been spending a lot of time with the meganes at mid ohio with rf2. Great fun.

 

[James Woods]

james woods: Ian Bell (someone not worth trusting a word he says) Ian Bell as it's lead man (quite the bullshitter)
did you know him personally?i don't think that you call him that face to face.

Don't take it too far! He may be a wonderful, trustworthy guy in his life, I can't possibly know or judge that, nor do I care. I am talking specifically about statements he has made regarding his games to us as potential customers, and the decisions that must ultimately come from him (lead man) regarding SMS statements. For me, they are generally not worth listening to.

First, the one that i find really funny is the Shift 2 video a page or two back from this one, where he belts out with great confidence: "Shift 2 has THE most advanced physics system of any game ever". How do you trust what he says now? For someone who was involved in some of the first true sims ever made, do you think he was being honest there or flat out lying?

And then look at how pCARS was marketed in the first place. It's no secret why this argumentative debate runs rife on several forums regarding whether pCARS is or isn't sim. It's not because some sim racing lovers are anal and just want to moan for no reason and belittle pCARS to protect their sim of choice. It's because SMS shouted from the rooftops that pCARS is going to try to be the ultimate sim in all categories: graphics, physics, handling - everything. It's fine to say this, mean it, and then fail, but is this what is happening? My personal opinion is, absolutely not, that it was never even envisioned as a true no-holds barred sim like rf2 or AC.

Then in an interview he let it slip that he see it in the same genre as Forza/GT5 and not rf2. Apparently he has tried to backtrack this comment now (at least this is what i heard in this very thread and no one correct it as untrue). Consoles guys, that truly seems to be their market, it makes so much sense that this comment was the first truthful thing I've seen him say, shame he can't stick to it.

So would i run up to Ian Bell's face and announce he is a bullshitter while doing a little chicken dance? No. But not because I'd be scared to say it, but because there are better ways to say it, like actually explaining yourself and position so you can get a proper response. On a forum where it's just us, its certainly a lot easier to get my point across to you folks that I actually think he talk a lot of bull, though.

 

[John Robertson]

****KKKK I had like 2000 words written out explaining my opinion on this VERY well, then accidentally deleted it. Now I don't feel like writing all that again. So.

Pcars CAN be good if the developers focus on FFB and physics, I mean Shift 2 (post the community patch) was actually really good.

Pcars CAN ALSO challenge gt5 and forza as being a content MONSTER as it already has a good starting point to launch into that.

Keep in mind, this will be one of the 1st titles to hit the next gen consoles (xbox 720) and they have indicated every interest in being a console title.

Where do you think it will end up in the spectrum of racing games?

I'm feeling like we'll see a repeat of shift 2 with a bit of updated physics, but nothing that's really going to challenge iracing or rfactor2. Which is a real shame, considering how the top guys have responded to posts about different racing environments. These guys really seem to want to conquer tracks, then ovals, then rally stuff. They seem to want to be the real complete deal, but I really haven't seen enough progress for them to challenge any of the current top dogs (forza, gt5, rfactor2, iracing, AC, etc...)

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Of course you can also always take just one element like braking.

This is an important distinction as it allows one to drive badly and continue on their merry way, it also allows one to approach corners at crazy speeds and get away with it, thus heightening the sensation of driving/handling.

All sims are the same, but iracing in the caddy is an example where despite the quality of the simulated braking feedback, you've got to be very careful not to get off the racing line and apply the brakes as you can easily spin or snap, and regardless of how realistic the physics are in that type of example, the fact remains that one must respect all aspects of racing, ie, stay on the racing line and avoid fighting excess inertia under load.

For the record, I'm happy to call pcars a simcade, so just consider simcade and arcade interchangable

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I'm feeling like we'll see a repeat of shift 2 with a bit of updated physics,

Or fixed physics, lol.
pcars with GFX cranked and the right cars and sounds{sounds nothing special atm} will destroy Shift2, as Shift2 was both botched and still had remnants of Shift1's more drifty driving model.
As it is, pcars is a better driving experience than Shift2 vanilla.

 

[James Woods]

Where do you think it will end up in the spectrum of racing games?

Personal opinion, but if they can polish it up the handling so it's as smooth and lag free as rfactor and it's ilk, and create more coherent content, i can see it being a solid alternative to Forza/GT. But I do wonder what those two juggernauts are up to right now for the next-gen consoles? Wouldn't surprise me if they step up their games significantly.

On the PC and ignoring all the "is it a sim" stuff. I think pCARS is looking to be unique in the market. It's the first very sophisticated racer that may have the potential to hit a chord with the masses. A few years back I'd have killed for a game like this. But after discovering sims, I'm not so sure it can hold my interest. We shall see.

Ultimately for me it will come down to how clean and streamlined online play is. If it's a really easy and smooth experience to set up a racing session and have all your friends + others join you, with good text chat and a really usable racing feel to it, i think i could still love this one. In the end, the thing i love most is competing against friends and others with clean racing, and if this title has just one or two cars that allow for nail biting racing like the Super Clio cup, or touring, or a great little Miata type car in there, or maybe even something more powerful, it will be fun enough for me... IF the handling is truly responsive and predictable (doesn't have to be extreme sim), It still might be a lot of fun to do what we all enjoy - race each other

 

[John Robertson]

For the record, I'm happy to call pcars a simcade, so just consider simcade and arcade interchangable

I just can't agree with you here, although I've followed most of this thread and have agreed with you in most parts of it, there are HUGE differences between a "simcade" and an "arcade" title. I think most people would agree the track mania, ridge racer, and san fransico rush all fall under the same arcade genre. You can't put games like toca 3, dirt series, f1 2010-11, shift 1 + 2, grid, forza series, and the gran turismo series in that same genre. They definitely occupy their own space in the market, and I think that's where pcars is going...even though they say they're a "sim" which I don't fully agree with.

simcade is definitely it's own genre and if pcars can prove to be either more sim or more cade, it will have some success.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

i. the physics are a bit wonky, b.

Game over Nathan
Who wouldn't want great physics and huge car and track lists etc, and just to be sure, I have every intention of buying pcars, I may not buy it on launch, but it's definitely a game I want.

Who cares if 30-50k hardcore sim players don't buy it, but let's be honest, this is no sim right now, and it's the physics that most people use to make that judgement.....in fact, that's all I've ever been saying.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I, there are HUGE differences between a "simcade" and an "arcade" title.

Maybe you're right, but even if I knew nothing about pcars, and someone gave me b207 and asked me to define it as either sim or arcade, I'd just say arcade.....but maybe if both camps started using simcade, we'd all get along, lol.