D -Box 4250i G3 VS Next Level Traction Plus and V3

[Prostock92]

Yes - D-Box Gen1 motion performance is identical to Gen3, however it's not expandable beyond 3DoF.

For horizontal motion, you'd have to add on a separate motion platform (e.g. PT Actuators).

Gen 3 will get manufacturer warranty. Gen 1 depends on who you buy it from (e.g. if it's a authorised reseller and Gen 1 is refurblshed, ask about warranty).

I'd be buying from Advance Race Sim, and they list it on their site as having a full 2-year warranty with D-Box industries from the date of purchase. And I actually called d-box head office, and their tech told me the same thing you just confirmed, that the Gen 1 and Gen 3, 4 actuator systems will feel the same to the end-user. I don't plan on adding any additional motion. I misread your comment when it said "no yaw and surge". You meant you couldn't add the extra actuators, and I thought that the four actuator system didn't portray it at all (even though most reviews seem to agree that it mimics those feelings pretty well without the extra actuators in place). Thanks for the reply/feedback, I appreciate it! I think I know what my next move is (heading back to that check-out!)

 

[NetLawMan]

So are you saying if I bought a Gen 1 refirb kit (like advance sim sells) I would experience the same motion as the Gen 3 units that have been reviewed in the last year online? I've literally had the Gen 1 4250i refirb kit in the shopping kart, and almost hit check out, but it's a big purchase, and I wouldn't want to be disappointed if I'm basing myself off of the feedback of youtube reviewers (SRG, Boosted media, Anthony Alfredo..)

Hi. I had gen 1 refurb before gen 3. It’s 85% of gen 3. I went for gen 3 for that extra 15%, the possibility of going to 4/5/6 DOF, and the likely longevity of parts availability (although as stated previously these things are built like tanks). You will be extremely happy with either and you won’t need transducers with either.

I bought my dbox from Advanced Sim Racing (as well as my button box and rig)

 

[Beef36]

Hi. I had gen 1 refurb before gen 3. It’s 85% of gen 3. I went for gen 3 for that extra 15%, the possibility of going to 4/5/6 DOF, and the likely longevity of parts availability (although as stated previously these things are built like tanks).

I'm always wary on long term motion platform expansions with any vendor; including D-Box.

D-Box Gen 2 came out in 2016 and supported vertical and horizontal actuators for up to 6DoF. But it was incompatible with Gen 1.

D-Box Gen 3 came out in 2020. But it is incompatible with Gen 2.

I don't know D-Box's roadmap, but if the intent is to expand a Gen 3 motion platform over say 3+ years, then users may be stuck sourcing refurbished Gen 3 hardware in the not too distant future.

Having said that, it'll likely be easier to source refurbished Gen 3 hardware over Gen 1 and 2 in the future.

 

[NetLawMan]

I'm always wary on long term motion platform expansions with any vendor; including D-Box.

D-Box Gen 2 came out in 2016 and supported vertical and horizontal actuators for up to 6DoF. But it was incompatible with Gen 1.

D-Box Gen 3 came out in 2020. But it is incompatible with Gen 2.

I don't know D-Box's roadmap, but if the intent is to expand a Gen 3 motion platform over say 3+ years, then users may be stuck sourcing refurbished Gen 3 hardware in the not too distant future.

Having said that, it'll likely be easier to source refurbished Gen 3 hardware over Gen 1 and 2 in the future.

Agreed. Gen 3 supports 4/5/6 now, hence my jump. The only reason that I would swap out my current 4 actuators is for D-box 3” travel. At current pricing, I have no intention of moving to 3” of travel…. I am super happy with what I have.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi. I had gen 1 refurb before gen 3. It’s 85% of gen 3. I went for gen 3 for that extra 15%, the possibility of going to 4/5/6 DOF, and the likely longevity of parts availability (although as stated previously these things are built like tanks). You will be extremely happy with either and you won’t need transducers with either.

I bought my dbox from Advanced Sim Racing (as well as my button box and rig)

The primary restriction with D-Box regarding its potential with tactile is that you do not have anything offering the same level of control or effects options that is available with software like Simhub.

Much of what can be achieved with tactile is in the quality of effects being produced but also in what level of hardware the user incorporates into their rig in how well it can reproduce the lowest-highest bass frequencies.

I would further add that the traditional approach with tactile was to install single units or place units in corners and then that unit chosen generates the frequencies for all the effects going to that channel. This again has major limitations to the potential that is possible. Both with effects control/application and creation as well as how each effects distribution may be managed.

No single make/model of transducer/actuator that I am aware of has the ability in performance compared to units with specific performance benefits being combined. These, tried/tested models let us take into account low/mid/high bass frequencies. So for example with a seat, when you combine these 3 types of specifically chosen units that best cater for those 3 bass roles. Then have those encompass a user's whole torso in a seat. You no longer (have to) rely on vibrations being generated that enter the user's body from one primary unit/source like the traditional approach and with its singular performance abilities/limitations.

Depends on users' priorities as to what may interest them but none of the motion or seat pad options on the market today get close to the potential that is possible regards more specialized tactile immersion approaches.

 

[NetLawMan]

The primary restriction with D-Box regarding its potential with tactile is that you do not have anything offering the same level of control or effects options that is available with software like Simhub.

Much of what can be achieved with tactile is in the quality of effects being produced but also in what level of hardware the user incorporates into their rig in how well it can reproduce the lowest-highest bass frequencies.

I would further add that the traditional approach with tactile was to install single units or place units in corners and then that unit chosen generates the frequencies for all the effects going to that channel. This again has major limitations to the potential that is possible. Both with effects control/application and creation as well as how each effects distribution may be managed.

No single make/model of transducer/actuator that I am aware of has the ability in performance compared to units with specific performance benefits being combined. These, tried/tested models let us take into account low/mid/high bass frequencies. So for example with a seat, when you combine these 3 types of specifically chosen units that best cater for those 3 bass roles. Then have those encompass a user's whole torso in a seat. You no longer (have to) rely on vibrations being generated that enter the user's body from one primary unit/source like the traditional approach and with its singular performance abilities/limitations.

Depends on users' priorities as to what may interest them but none of the motion or seat pad options on the market today get close to the potential that is possible regards more specialized tactile immersion approaches.

But here is the reality. No matter how refined the tactile, there is a limited number of vibrations you can create simultaneously before they start colliding with each other into mush. After all, all of the vibrations reach you through same contact points in the seat. You have limited cues.

Moreover, with a dbox type system, you don’t need infinitely refine-able vibrations, because you don’t need to use vibration as a substitute for movements and micro-movements

Thus, It’s not a question of movement vs. tactile vibration. Dbox offers you multiple types of movement, micro-movements, and tactile vibration. Your body gets to experience more types of sensations the way it expects to.

 

[RCHeliguy]

But here is the reality. No matter how refined the tactile, there is a limited number of vibrations you can create simultaneously before they start colliding with each other into mush. After all, all of the vibrations reach you through same contact points in the seat. You have limited cues.

Moreover, with a dbox type system, you don’t need infinitely refine-able vibrations, because you don’t need to use vibration as a substitute for movements and micro-movements

Thus, It’s not a question of movement vs. tactile vibration. Dbox offers you multiple types of movement, micro-movements, and tactile vibration. Your body gets to experience more types of sensations the way it expects to.

That's not how it is supposed to work, but you are right that in practice with an actuator only based system you will get mush.

If you have a poor tactile system without enough frequency range and enough transducers to spread the effects between than you will also get mush.

However from experience I can tell you that I'm able to very clearly differentiate between a fairly large number of vibrations simultaneously with a well designed tactile system.

In a real car you have vibrations from the suspension, engine, transmission, etc.. They are at different frequencies and you can feel them all at once.

Likewise with a solid tactile system you have a very realistic engine feel, gear shift, road vibration, rumble, wheel slip, ABS, a sense of speed, etc. You can also very clearly feel a number of these at the exact same time in a very realistic way. These effects are all individually tunable to feel right on your rig. They are occurring simultaneously and I can assure you absolutely do not feel like mush.

These effects have multiple layers that create harmonics and utilize multiple transducers at the same time. This is much harder for an actuator to do.

One big issue with actuator only tactile is that you have to move the whole chassis which shakes everything and having to move all that mass at once presents limitations that you don't get when tactile is applied to an isolated seat or foot plate. This also means that every bit of your rig needs to be very tightly secured and that you can still have controls and dash element buzzing and vibrating at their natural frequencies.

 

[OlaGB]

A Dbox probably isnt as good as you guy’s shaker systems (which i do belive is very good), but it’s plug and play, and not many many hours of mech and sw tuning.

And it’s even moving the rig, just like the threadstarter wants

But i agree, if you want the very best of tactile, you need a advanced system and alot of fine tuning. Thing is, most people do’nt have time (and knowledge) for that. And the top brand motion kits are allready doing a proper job at tactile.

My rig doesnt rattle though, even with both a tactile motion kit and 4 buttkickers on it.
But if i’d had to choose, i will definently turn off the shakers before the motion, any day of the week. Would have to think for 1 second.

I wonder how this went for the threadstarter

 

[RCHeliguy]

I wonder how this went for the threadstarter

That's a good question. These threads tend to take on a life of their own after a while.

I don't think that there is any doubt that setting up a single system like the D-Box is less effort. D-Box has a great hardware and software solution that is easy to dial in and has a great track record.

And a serious tactile system takes time to set up and the cost is non-trivial. Amplifiers w/DSP's, transducer mounts with isolation for your seat and foot plate, wiring, DSP curves, and finally well thought out effects.

I was put off setting up a "serious" tactile system for a while because of the complexity and cost. After watching the rabbit hole Mr. Latte's had gone down in the tactile thread he started, I was scared off and I had other priorities that I wanted to tackle first.

I did circle back around to this when it seemed that everything was finally coming together and I haven't been disappointed. Realistically the whole system has only come together in the last 6 months or so and it is only just now reaching more than a small handful of people. And to be fair this is still a DIY, just with support, a plan of attack and some hardware to help out.

 

[NetLawMan]

I can only highlight what I mentioned before which is vibration is not the only thing you feel in a car. You feel movement. All kinds of movement. Up/down/left/right/forward/back. You feel them at different levels. Tiny micro movements/big-swings.

It doesn’t matter how detailed the vibrations are, it is not movement. And movement is another whole dimension.

The best setup is movement plus reasonable tactile in a partner/supporting role.

It generally gets annoying that so many threads about motion get derailed in a discussion about how tactile is better, always driven by those who have chosen tactile, invested more of their lives into tactile than 99 percent of people will ever do, and can’t accept that there are other potentially better options. It’s not clear whether they have tried the systems they are debating against. Moreover, if you are looking to build a business on tactile, and are not disclosing that fact when responding in a thread like this, it’s not right.

All are free to choose which system or combination they prefer. I tried both and I know what I prefer . Given the millions of dollars car and racing companies invest in building simulators, how many of those are tactile only?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Interesting comments to unpack.

I do business process automation for a living. I am helping with the RaceBass effort because I believe in it. I have zero financial stake in this and have not received a penny, nor will I. I have in no way hidden this fact. I have mentioned in my build thread that I was hoping to help them out, but I am not tied to them in any way.

I have also repeatedly stated that setting up a single system like D-Box is simpler to do is well executed and has a great track record and has excellent easy to dial in software. Also that there is a lot of complexity and cost associated with setting up a serious tactile system. I have not sugar coated this fact. I estimate about $3,000 to do it well which includes amps, DSP's, transducers, mounting systems and isolation and some effort.

I've also said that a rig is a personal thing and that is driven by the priorities of the owner.

I would go further than you did and say only a very small minority of people out there have achieved a serious tactile system so far. This number is starting to increase, but I can't predict the future.

In addition I suspect a lot of people have likely spent both time and a chunk of money creating tactile systems that they are not getting very good results from.

When you decide the "best" setup is movement and "reasonable tactile", you are also expressing an opinion which I would have trouble calling a fact.

I would reverse that and say "reasonable movement" and excellent tactile makes a better system, but that is also an opinion.

If you have a solution that works for you, that is all that matters.

For the record there are some people who have taken a no compromise approach and are putting a serious tactile system on a D-Box system and I say Kudos to them! I look forward to hearing their thoughts when they are done building!

FWIW I'm also a VR only guy and I know a bunch of people love their triples and I know people who will fight to defend their way as the right way. Then there are a few people who said F it! and have both. Whatever works for you!

 

[Mr Latte]

I responded from a personal perspective, it's just a discussion.

Often in the past, on these forums, I tried to talk about how "motion" based rigs could be best combined with high-level tactile. It's not a Vs thing as your right people will buy what most interests them and both options indeed have not only their own advantages but also things they can deliver that the other cant.

To be fair, I don't think you've experienced the level of tactile I personally am pursuing or the standard I seek to achieve from it. Your own basis in what you have experienced before is not perhaps reflective of the position we find ourselves.

I can tell you that at SimExpo in 2021 there were many competing motion rigs, yet not one of them has a level of tactile-based effects/immersion that gets close to what I personally want to be part of bringing to the sim racing community.

What I would say, in what people have told me, is that "vibration" brings a sense of emotion and multifaceted connection with the car, which for many people may be greater than the "movement". To some this may be something they rate more than motion, or for others the motion is perhaps one of the most enjoyable aspects of their sim rig.

What can be achieved with both combined is likely better than either option without the other. Yet you find people often make it about one versus the other.

However, I have had chats with some with real racing or track day experience, coming at this from a "realism perspective", that based on a demo they had, they would rate belt tensioners with high quality tactile, higher than full-motion systems with basic tactile, as they feel the motion is not necessarily for them accurately representing the true experience and the basic tactile has many limitations as well.

 

[drvrn]

I have vision and sound already with screens and sound system.

Now next step is motion system and vibration.

 

[Beef36]

For the record there are some people who have taken a no compromise approach and are putting a serious tactile system on a D-Box system and I say Kudos to them! I look forward to hearing their thoughts when they are done building!

I have multiple Buttkickers Advances using SimVibe and a D-Box.

I'm no tactile connoisseur and it could be argued that I prefer my tactile punchy over being nuanced, but that's the way I like it. From this I find the Buttkickers & SimVibe amplify tactile more than the D-Box.

For example, when changing gears I like to feel the car thump. D-Box makes the chassis pitch forwards / backwards nicely but the thump is weak without the Buttkickers. Also the feel of the car overall is more pronounced with the Buttkickers.

It's not as simple as tactile is better than motion or vice versa as each has strong points. For me, heave is the best, then some elements of tactile, then maybe pitch, then other elements of tactile etc.

Thus I found the better solution is a combination of both D-Box and additional tactile to really "feel" my sim racing....

 

[AshCountach]

I'm in the same position as the initial poster. I've had the V3 for almost 2 years now and I do like it, but I've always wanted full motion and leaning towards the d-box solution.

I looked at some of the other suggested motion platform alternatives and they don't support near the number of games that D-box does. I'm more of a gamer than sim racer so I play a ton of different racing titles vs just one, so the range of games is very appealing. It supports some racing games that do not have telemetry support like Vrally 4, the Need for Speed games, and others, so it appears they are integrating more than just telemetry as no other motion platform supports those titles. It also supports some non-racing/flight titles like Skyrim and Crysis Warhead which I can't find a video of anyone playing those games with a d-box setup anywhere. Not sure if NewLawMan can try one of them just to give some impressions.

 

[Beef36]

I looked at some of the other suggested motion platform alternatives and they don't support near the number of games that D-box does. I'm more of a gamer than sim racer so I play a ton of different racing titles vs just one, so the range of games is very appealing. It supports some racing games that do not have telemetry support like Vrally 4, the Need for Speed games, and others, so it appears they are integrating more than just telemetry as no other motion platform supports those titles. It also supports some non-racing/flight titles like Skyrim and Crysis Warhead which I can't find a video of anyone playing those games with a d-box setup anywhere.

For D-Box users:

- The good is that D-Box has its own Software Development Kit (SDK) that games developers can utilise for more nuanced motion cues.

- The bad is that D-Box has its own Software Development Kit (SDK) and constantly reaches out to multiple game developers across many genres, however most have no interest as the motion market is small. Thus the list of D-Box supported games is small.

For years D-Box has and continues to reach out to multiple game developers (eg Rockstar, Frontier, Respawn Entertainment etc) to work with them to integrate with D-Box's Software Development Kit (SDK).

The gaming motion market is really small and D-Box's Software Development Kit is both a blessing and a curse.

No SDK integration = No D-Box motion support

Thus if you want motion on other games like Fortnite, Red Dead Redemption 2, It Takes Two, Planet Coaster etc, then D-Box is not the way to go as it currently only supports just under 100 titles (including Skyrim and Crisis Warhead).

Also some game developers don't prioritise the SDK when deploying game updates. I recall Battlefield 2 with D-Box was fantastic, however after a particular BF2 patch, D-Box motion never worked again and D-Box removed it from their supported games list.

However.......

D-Box has just partnered with Cooler Master and Razer for a new product; haptic gaming chairs. Those chairs are effectively the same but with inconsistent marketing.

Cooler Master indicates only support for specific movies and the above PC gaming titles, however Razer says haptic support for all PC games.

I don't know if Razer is incorrect marketing hype, but if it's true then that is a new direction for D-Box...

 

[NetLawMan]

I'm in the same position as the initial poster. I've had the V3 for almost 2 years now and I do like it, but I've always wanted full motion and leaning towards the d-box solution.

I looked at some of the other suggested motion platform alternatives and they don't support near the number of games that D-box does. I'm more of a gamer than sim racer so I play a ton of different racing titles vs just one, so the range of games is very appealing. It supports some racing games that do not have telemetry support like Vrally 4, the Need for Speed games, and others, so it appears they are integrating more than just telemetry as no other motion platform supports those titles. It also supports some non-racing/flight titles like Skyrim and Crysis Warhead which I can't find a video of anyone playing those games with a d-box setup anywhere. Not sure if NewLawMan can try one of them just to give some impressions.

It’s possible this weekend, but if not, than in the near future. My daughter is downstairs playing Forza Horizon 4 on the d-box rig right now . It makes it a lot of fun.

It should be noted that for Forza, dbox appears to rely on the standard telemetry stream. That is not the case for F1 or Dirt Rally or others, where the dbox is natively integrated.

I use simhub to capture telemetry from all games and forward the telemetry to all accessories (non-native d-box games, gauges, wind, etc.)

 

[NetLawMan]

I'm in the same position as the initial poster. I've had the V3 for almost 2 years now and I do like it, but I've always wanted full motion and leaning towards the d-box solution.

I looked at some of the other suggested motion platform alternatives and they don't support near the number of games that D-box does. I'm more of a gamer than sim racer so I play a ton of different racing titles vs just one, so the range of games is very appealing. It supports some racing games that do not have telemetry support like Vrally 4, the Need for Speed games, and others, so it appears they are integrating more than just telemetry as no other motion platform supports those titles. It also supports some non-racing/flight titles like Skyrim and Crysis Warhead which I can't find a video of anyone playing those games with a d-box setup anywhere. Not sure if NewLawMan can try one of them just to give some impressions.

Now that Grid legends is a code master release, hopefully it will have native d-box support like F1 and Dirt Rally 2.

 

[Prostock92]

I can't recommend what is the best motion platform for you, however D-Box is a commercial spec platform and built like a tank with renouned reliability and longevity, thus it's worth considering buying a used set.

Last year I bought a refurbished D-Box 4250i 1.5" (Generation 1) for a friend for the equivalent of GBP 3,400 (plus shipping from USA). The key difference between the current Gen 3 D-Box and the older Gen 1 is the latter does not support horizontal movement (e.g no D-Box surge and yaw).

So, I went ahead and purchased the Gen 1 D-box kit (4250i from Advanced Sim Racing). I'm in the process mounting itr to my rig, but I can't fin anywhere that shows which of the two boxes is considered the MAster( the front pair or the rear, that has the rj45 style wire that goes to the donggle/computer). And also, which of the two ports on the master goes to said dongle, and which one goes to the other box (each box has a "Kinelink" and a "port" on each. Does anyone know from experience , or have any documentation on this (the installation instruction found on the d-box website show the pairs of actuators set up per side, as in the left rear and left front are together, same for the right. and doesn't specify which port goes where)

 

[NetLawMan]

Hi. each of the two control boxes should have diagrams to show whether it is for the front or back and which actuator is left vs. right (top-down arm chair view). Based on some photos from when I had the G1, it looks like the front was used as the master.

To confirm, Barry at SimRacingGarage did a g1 install vid. Also, the guys over at ASR are great and it seems easiest to reach them via FB messenger.