DiRT Rally Is Dirt Rally close to RBR's physics/FFB now?

[Mike85]

Is Dirt Rally close to RBR's physics/FFB now?

 

[Skazz]

Yes, at the moment you can get terminal damage occasionally and you can suffer component failure if you abuse components and don't repair them sufficiently between stages. But you can always restart a stage (except on the daily online rally) with only a tiny penalty to final earnings for the rally.

But RBR style "one tree and your rally is over" is deliberately not in the game. You can survive a bunch of mishaps and drive on, restart if needed.

The option to bring the kind of damage consequences which real life rally drivers face is something which was talked about in the livesteram.

 

[Ian Cameron]

Yes, at the moment you can get terminal damage occasionally and you can suffer component failure if you abuse components and don't repair them sufficiently between stages. But you can always restart a stage (except on the daily online rally) with only a tiny penalty to final earnings for the rally.

But RBR style "one tree and your rally is over" is deliberately not in the game. You can survive a bunch of mishaps and drive on, restart if needed.

The option to bring the kind of damage consequences which real life rally drivers face is something which was talked about in the livesteram.

Take your point.

 

[Yapci]

The line between "funny" realism and frustrating realism...

Don't forget that it is a game after all and developers wants to sell the most they can, and not everybody likes extra frustrating stuff!

 

[BobMarl1118]

and not everybody likes extra frustrating stuff!

Exactly. That's why something like Automatic, Sequential or Manual transmission option exists.
Forcing everyone to play with the joke that is the current damage system just makes people who want realism stay away from this game. Plus, changing the damage numbers is the easiest thing to do so I don't see why this option wasn't in game at first release.

 

[Skazz]

I think people wanting damage like that are so much in the minority that Codemasters rightly should be working on other things... For example getting the Tarmac FFB improved, making sure we can run Pikes Peak with rally cars (and vice versa!), sorting out the rather extreme air time in Finland, finishing up the remaining cars in all classes (and hopefully adding the R1-R3 and R5 junior classes), improving the single player experience to make it flow better, tweaking the Rallycross AI difficulty levels so that its easier to find AI of the appropriate speed, etc....

I would be happy enough with a "realistic damage" option coming after release, but Codemasters would have to spend development time tuning and tweaking it to be firm but fair. if I had to choose between it and say a DLC pack with some modern hillclimb monsters, or another rally location, the choice is easy. You can always hit the retire button manually if you crash in a manner which should be terminal, not exactly hard to do.

 

[Arne Dopudja]

HC damage will probably come at some point.
By coincidence, watched an onboard od McRae with group A Impreza on monte carlo or something. Yes the car seems to bw pivoting around a central point but the guy pushed it beyond the limit and it is to be expected from a 4WD car.
But it is the result of physics, it happens under acceleration. In DR it feels they put it ingame to look like the real thing artificially.
I was playing around with LFS and made the RB4 (kinda like celica gt4) and tweaked the engine and physics to match group A settings and it did this central pivot but never when off the power. It was a natural result of good physics.

 

[Kinggene]

Think everyone misses a big point about the RBR that makes it timeless and what they will need to do for DiRT to make it timeless as well, The simulated rally's season. Without the season sim, the stages, even with over a hundred in RBR with BTB, would get meaningless as the DiRT stages are already getting.
The true agony of defeat and blown stage ending entire rallys in one ****-up make the sim a true to life endeavor!
In my Opinion!
Kinggene
7123 RallyeSim Mod Driver

 

[kikie]

Someone said that the FFB isn't coming directly from the steering rack (Like Assetto Corsa) so sadly we'll probably never get the same high quality FFB as we have from Kunos.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly but when a car oversteers or understeers, the steering of a real car gets lighter, not heavier. That is why I hate FFB in race games. FFB in race game is never accurate and realistic.

Listen to what Tiff Needell has to say about oppisite lock (when you countersteer to control a car), at 1'30".

 

[BobMarl1118]

Any feedback on 1.0 release? Is there physics improvements?

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

nope, none that i read about or noticed. since i'm fine with physics as they are and have never touched a rally car in real life, that's ok by me.

 

[ledanek]

has finally uninstalled RBR...then again, I'm getting older and need more time other than fiddling with the settings.
YMMV

 

[Skazz]

Any feedback on 1.0 release? Is there physics improvements?

Only that the final few cars were updated with "v2" physics (kit cars, Group B RWD, hillclimb). And self-aligning torque FFB was globally adjusted now they are updated. So the "feel" is slightly different, but I think the underlying physics are unchanged in the cars which were already running v2.

I've not had a chance to try them out yet.

 

[fbs]

I agree with Mikaela and some others in most cases but someone may fail when it comes to explain what he/she feels and why.

Another guy (i don't remember his name) mentioned that you cannot compare 2 games in terms of reality, only real life experience to a game. I agree and from this point of view, Richard Burns Rally is the closest thing i felt compared to my on and off track experience.

Like in any real scenarios, when in doubt, follow the money, which in this case translates to the data that supports the opinion or "the feel".

Since CMRae in 1998, codemasters has continued to disappoint me with every new release, up to the current title. What Mikaela described as "submerged in liquid", some others have described it as "greased brick" with a central pivoted axis. I couldn't agree more.

It seems that is relaying on pre scripted tables which are made to match very rough numbers and don't interact with each other.

It is very hard to find the braking points or the racing line because there is no consistency with the "physics" and no feedback to and from the calculations (software). This is very obvious when cornering at low to medium speeds or power sliding, suddenly the car reacts abnormally and inconsistently with the input because of the current pre-scripted table switching and taking over.

A very interesting video which explains a lot about the sim-arcade difference (over 1 hour), Brian Beckman and the Physics in Games:

Some info about slip angle vs slip ratio:
http://www.edy.es/dev/2011/12/facts-and-myths-on-the-pacejka-curves/

This is what some of the other sims are using:
http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/Comparison_of_racing_simulators

Nothing can be found here except the phrase "prototyping a handling model":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt_Rally

Also nothing specific here except "The Ego engine was developed to render more detailed damage and physics as well as render large-scale environments":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EGO_(game_engine)

There is no physics specific information, the only physics showcase i found was about the destruction of obstacles in a race course.

Is the tire modeling (if there is any) Pacejka based or Pacejka-like simplified (no mainstream computer can run the full code in real time, 1 frame every few seconds) or something else and new?

This is why the developers of LiveForSpeed insist on simplified graphics for very high frame rate, anything less than 60Hz doesn't support sufficient calculations for physics resolution. Their new tire model is in development for years.

The technology behind Richard Burns Rally is also very advanced, even though it was half finished. If you look closely to the code, you 'll find that there are settings and switches that never implemented because of the deadline SCI forced on the team.

As of Dirt Rally, i think this is the best they can do, there are no physics to correct-adjust, it is the refinement of the old neo/ego engine (they call it "handling model ") which actually is a container of different modules for sound, graphics and... apparently physics! I would give my cat's right arm for a new rally sim, but as the old adage says, you can't polish a t**d.

 

[Andy_J]

I agree with Mikaela
As of Dirt Rally, i think this is the best they can do, there are no physics to correct-adjust, it is the refinement of the old neo/ego engine (they call it "handling model ") which actually is a container of different modules for sound, graphics and... apparently physics! I would give my cat's right arm for a new rally sim, but as the old adage says, you can't polish a t**d.

That's all well and very clever sounding, but most of us couldn't care less, especially the "agreeing" with Mikaela bit.

Dirt Rally is superb at simulating .........hmm......Rally driving. I love the feel of the FFB, the way it makes me react and over correct sometimes. I love the cars momentum. I love the way all the cars are vastly different in the way the handle and respond. I love the feeling I get from it when powersliding around a nice curve and hand brake turning around a hairpin. To me it is a fantastic modern rally sim and it sits proudly on my hard drive next to RBR.
So you are entitled to your opinion (as am I) and you free to at least go and try to polish your turds.
Marry Xmas.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

The technology behind Richard Burns Rally is also very advanced, even though it was half finished. If you look closely to the code, you 'll find that there are settings and switches that never implemented because of the deadline SCI forced on the team.

As of Dirt Rally, i think this is the best they can do, there are no physics to correct-adjust, it is the refinement of the old neo/ego engine (they call it "handling model ") which actually is a container of different modules for sound, graphics and... apparently physics! I would give my cat's right arm for a new rally sim, but as the old adage says, you can't polish a t**d.

Much good in the post, and I advice everyone to read it twice to get everything, also, if you have time, watch the video However, please skip the sentence about "real sims", for one, the term "real sim" isn't something I like to see, even less in this sub-forum, as those classifications tend to bring out the worst in people.

When it comes to the last two parts, yes the technology behind RBR is advanced, and was extremely impressive for it's time, but as you say, they had time issues, and had to get it released. It's far from a perfect game, also note that Eero Piitulainen, who is pretty much hailed for the RBR effort (as mentioned in the gaming wikia), was pulled from pCars as it was a feeling that it wasn't realistic enough.

And yes, I do think that DiRT Rally is the best Codemasters can do under the restrictions of the EGO Engine, but then again, just like RBR and time issues, it happened with Codemasters. It was just barely that they managed to convince the top-guys in the company to head in the direction they did, and it was a gamble, economic, and fanbase-wise.

Both games have it limits, weaknesses and strengths.

I agree that there are certain elements of RBR that feels more close to IRL than any other games. But the game are way to slippery, the cars are to light - easy to see when you start rolling, or hit something off the road. It's also a game clearly made for 4WD cars, while not a weakness, it's a limit.

But when you drive DiRT, you realize that they have nailed other things, the grip of the cars, are closer to how it is IRL. It felt weird having that little opposite lock while sliding around when I started playing DiRT Rally, but after looking at season review on season review, I am amazed on how often they don't use the opposite lock IRL as well. There are things that can feel off, but there are things that feel oh, so right in DiRT as well, but it needs some practice to get there.

 

[fbs]

but most of us couldn't care less, especially the "agreeing" with Mikaela bit.

Please refrain from implying sneaky comments about others and stick to giving your opinion about the games. As you stated, we are entitled to our opinion.

So you are entitled to your opinion (as am I) and you free to at least go and try to polish your turds.Marry Xmas.

Again, besides of being quarrelsome, here you criticize other persons opinions.

However, please skip the sentence about "real sims"

Corrected.

was pulled from pCars as it was a feeling that it wasn't realistic enough

This is not what i know, he indeed was pulled from pCars but he was restrained, he stated this is the best he could produce and after they hired AJ, things didn't go well, but SMS was happy. I'm not 100% sure what actually happened though.

... easy to see when you start rolling, or hit something off the road. It's also a game clearly made for 4WD cars

actually is made for FWD and 4WD. I agree with you about the weird rolling, i think it's the result of "hard body physics" without any filtering. I can easily see your point about the strengths of DR but the point of my post was about the facts and the data. Is there something remarkable in their code or is it "cooked" to feel this way? If anyone here has something to share, please do.

 

[Palo Samo]

If it is "cooked" then it is a lovely dish

 

[Brian C Hayes]

I reinstalled RBR yesterday for the first in years and instantly even with the base version ...you just feel the weight of the car a lot more and every little bump in the road ... also you dont drive with your foot floored as much as in Dirt otherwise you are in a hedge ... I love Dirt .. but there is about 30% room for improvement on FFB and Physics

 

[bogani]

I reinstalled RBR yesterday for the first in years and instantly even with the base version ...you just feel the weight of the car a lot more and every little bump in the road ... also you dont drive with your foot floored as much as in Dirt otherwise you are in a hedge ... I love Dirt .. but there is about 30% room for improvement on FFB and Physics

I did the same a few months ago and I feel the exact opposite. The vanilla version is pretty much undriveable for me now, even though I loved it back in the day.
The cars feel weightless and the grip is ridiculously low.

 

[GoodOldBakes]

I did the same a few months ago and I feel the exact opposite. The vanilla version is pretty much undriveable for me now, even though I loved it back in the day.
The cars feel weightless and the grip is ridiculously low.

I pretty much agree with this although for me, the cars feel weightier than DR. I tried RBR a couple of weeks ago and it made me appreciate how good DR actually is. I do agree there is room for improvement with the physics and also the damage modelling though .

... also you dont drive with your foot floored as much as in Dirt otherwise you are in a hedge ...

There's very few times in DR that you can drive with your foot to the floor. Maybe it's my driving that's poor or that I mostly drive the older cars but I'm always having to pump the throttle to keep the car on the track.