I was thinking about how the FFB signals from a wheel are completely different from all the sensations from a real car and came to the conclusion that a great race sim is one that generates a convincing illusion. If physical modelling was enough you could sim race with spreadsheets, but clearly that wouldn't be much fun. Graphics without modelling wouldn't be much good, and great physics and graphics but wonky controls would break the illusion.
Is realism the most important thing for a race sim?
- Thread starter Jean-Pierre Sarti
- Start date
Following this 
I've raced online using the GT Legends game quite a bit in the past. The 'realism' of this game is nothing like what the modern sims achieve, but the racing is just as valid, and just as exciting, as those games. In 'real life', racing a classic mini requires different skills to racing an F1 car, but as long as you are racing other minis (or the same class), the basic principles are the same - the most skilled driver usually wins - and competing for places is just as much fun. If the racing is close, I find GT Legends just as immersive as ACC. For me, it isn't how accurate the physics are, it is how much fun I can have racing that creates the immersion.
From my experience, sims that are the best at "tricking me" are also the most realistic.
But the most realistic driving wouldn't be enough to make me enjoy and drive that sim!
And then there is Wreckfest, which holds a special place in my heart.
Completely unrealistic but at the same time it feels 100% exactly how I would imagine to drive an insane car in the dirt.
Drifting is enormous fun, input to car reaction is very believable for me!
Basically, going sideways at 150 kph in that game feels exactly like my 120 hp mb c-class did at 10-20 kph on snow in an empty parking lot
And if you get in a "clean race" server, you can really show your skills with a wheel and a good dance on the pedals.
But otherwise, AC is great for the RD club races since the driving is very nice, at least somewhat on the realistic side but at the same time it has a lot of restrictions, which make it very accessible for 20-60 minute races!
ACC is a bit more realistic and is a lot more immersive with cut detections, penalties, rain, night, rolling starts etc but it's a lot less accessible due to that.
Forza, project cars, gt sport are all less enjoyable for track racing for me due to the car just not feeling realistic...
But the most realistic driving wouldn't be enough to make me enjoy and drive that sim!
And then there is Wreckfest, which holds a special place in my heart.
Completely unrealistic but at the same time it feels 100% exactly how I would imagine to drive an insane car in the dirt.
Drifting is enormous fun, input to car reaction is very believable for me!
Basically, going sideways at 150 kph in that game feels exactly like my 120 hp mb c-class did at 10-20 kph on snow in an empty parking lot
And if you get in a "clean race" server, you can really show your skills with a wheel and a good dance on the pedals.
But otherwise, AC is great for the RD club races since the driving is very nice, at least somewhat on the realistic side but at the same time it has a lot of restrictions, which make it very accessible for 20-60 minute races!
ACC is a bit more realistic and is a lot more immersive with cut detections, penalties, rain, night, rolling starts etc but it's a lot less accessible due to that.
Forza, project cars, gt sport are all less enjoyable for track racing for me due to the car just not feeling realistic...
The great sim developer's are great illusionists. "I know I'm not racing but I feel like I'm racing" is rather like "I know the lady wasn't sawed in half, but I sure saw a lady get sawed in half".
Seems like developers today seem to ignore some of the things that enhance immersion. GPL's menu system with track programs, etc. started the immersion process before you even turned a wheel. Likewise with the music and crowd sounds in GTR2 and the 60's cover songs in the GTR2 "Power and Glory" mod.
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Deleted member 963434
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Deleted member 963434
i dont think it shall be 100% matematic accurate by simple reason:
-in real racing we have 100% accurate physicks but we feel car under our pants that makes us easier to react to all things that happen
-in simracing if we have sim lets say 90% accurate physicks, we are sitting on hair and not feel car under our pants and that sucks to react to all stuff that happens to car when sim is so accurate
to say more i think KUNOS games are too much math in it. and what it makes them? not quite racing sims but more hotlap sim LOL
i mean lets take ACC which may be most accurate of all GT3 sims and try drive there competitive race.. lol almost all time you race alone cause racing there is just hotlaping. and i dont mean who drive better a car, but who learned game physicks and cars reactions to different scenarios better.. you know what i mean? physicks there is so complicated (or accurate to real life) you basically must learn it by playing much time, as those sophisticated physicks there applies only to cars but not to your body (of course as you not sitting in a car in game but sit on chair in your room and watch cars behave throught you small monitor and got small percent of feelings throught your wheel)
tell me did you have immersive race in ACC? i do but very rarely if i met guy who understand sim as me and we may race. but still there is no fun to me as i feel those races as hotlaping, but guy in front feels like my ghost car. i feel always pressure to not turn wheel too much to spin car (which i would not did in real life as i feel car behave under my pants)
or not say sim which you had most immersive race when you actually felt you race with people wheel to wheel? not that you hotlapping with them on same track? that would be pCARS2, RRRE, AMS2. there you can feel you driving with people as physicks is simplicated and you focus more on racing lines, braking points and throttle points and tactics to overtake others than on cars behaviour that you would feel in real life and would easily react to it, but as you sitting on chair and not feel cars behaviour you must play long to time to learn those cars behaviours and learn how to react to all that forces affecting car stability. and basically you learn how to hotlap lets say DRONE CAR in real life xD
imagine ACC has 100% physicks to real life but suddently them all gt3 drivers will race them as REMOTE CONTROLLED DRONES. you think thm races will look as today? no they will actually look same as simracing in ACC. everyone will just hotlap and who learn how to control that CAR DRONE without feeling it under him pants would be best.
so i think best racing sims are ironically those who not put so much math into sim but more immersion. i mean some "reactions" shall be kinda automated and be just virtual drivers automated reactions to car behaviour as he feel what cars doint under him pants. and us let just race wheel to wheel, not force us to learn cars behaviour without feeling car behaviour.... cause if you force us learn car behaviour without feeling car behaviour you basically make hotlap simulator.
-in real racing we have 100% accurate physicks but we feel car under our pants that makes us easier to react to all things that happen
-in simracing if we have sim lets say 90% accurate physicks, we are sitting on hair and not feel car under our pants and that sucks to react to all stuff that happens to car when sim is so accurate
to say more i think KUNOS games are too much math in it. and what it makes them? not quite racing sims but more hotlap sim LOL
i mean lets take ACC which may be most accurate of all GT3 sims and try drive there competitive race.. lol almost all time you race alone cause racing there is just hotlaping. and i dont mean who drive better a car, but who learned game physicks and cars reactions to different scenarios better.. you know what i mean? physicks there is so complicated (or accurate to real life) you basically must learn it by playing much time, as those sophisticated physicks there applies only to cars but not to your body (of course as you not sitting in a car in game but sit on chair in your room and watch cars behave throught you small monitor and got small percent of feelings throught your wheel)
tell me did you have immersive race in ACC? i do but very rarely if i met guy who understand sim as me and we may race. but still there is no fun to me as i feel those races as hotlaping, but guy in front feels like my ghost car. i feel always pressure to not turn wheel too much to spin car (which i would not did in real life as i feel car behave under my pants)
or not say sim which you had most immersive race when you actually felt you race with people wheel to wheel? not that you hotlapping with them on same track? that would be pCARS2, RRRE, AMS2. there you can feel you driving with people as physicks is simplicated and you focus more on racing lines, braking points and throttle points and tactics to overtake others than on cars behaviour that you would feel in real life and would easily react to it, but as you sitting on chair and not feel cars behaviour you must play long to time to learn those cars behaviours and learn how to react to all that forces affecting car stability. and basically you learn how to hotlap lets say DRONE CAR in real life xD
imagine ACC has 100% physicks to real life but suddently them all gt3 drivers will race them as REMOTE CONTROLLED DRONES. you think thm races will look as today? no they will actually look same as simracing in ACC. everyone will just hotlap and who learn how to control that CAR DRONE without feeling it under him pants would be best.
so i think best racing sims are ironically those who not put so much math into sim but more immersion. i mean some "reactions" shall be kinda automated and be just virtual drivers automated reactions to car behaviour as he feel what cars doint under him pants. and us let just race wheel to wheel, not force us to learn cars behaviour without feeling car behaviour.... cause if you force us learn car behaviour without feeling car behaviour you basically make hotlap simulator.
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Deleted member 963434
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Deleted member 963434
Hamilton giving advice to gran turismo simmers whats more important:
at 1:50 he tell most important is tyre preserving, learning car each year one year you have understeery car nother oversteery, and each year is different condition on track. he tell most important are braking zone, hitting apex and using whole track width.
he not tell about physicks. and thats worst in sims you have almost same conditions and best are those who play so much they basically learn hotlapping with closed eyes. and you race them pass them, block them and they suddently dont know how to race cause they was pushed off them PERFECT racing line which they was used to drive and they crash xD so i think simracing shall be less math but more car control focusing thing, which let you feel car behaving better. cars shall be more sensitive to your inputs as throttle, brake and wheel than to physicks calculations. AS I SAID ABOVE real drivers feel all that physicks with them bodies, they FEEL WHOLE CAR moving under them, we not feel it thats why sometimes in ACC i have suddent spin i know i would react to in real life, but in sim as i NOT FEEL car under me i cannot react fast enought.
at 1:50 he tell most important is tyre preserving, learning car each year one year you have understeery car nother oversteery, and each year is different condition on track. he tell most important are braking zone, hitting apex and using whole track width.
he not tell about physicks. and thats worst in sims you have almost same conditions and best are those who play so much they basically learn hotlapping with closed eyes. and you race them pass them, block them and they suddently dont know how to race cause they was pushed off them PERFECT racing line which they was used to drive and they crash xD so i think simracing shall be less math but more car control focusing thing, which let you feel car behaving better. cars shall be more sensitive to your inputs as throttle, brake and wheel than to physicks calculations. AS I SAID ABOVE real drivers feel all that physicks with them bodies, they FEEL WHOLE CAR moving under them, we not feel it thats why sometimes in ACC i have suddent spin i know i would react to in real life, but in sim as i NOT FEEL car under me i cannot react fast enought.
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Deleted member 963434
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Deleted member 963434
I TELL YOU how to proove 100% matematically correct sims suck:
put real drivers to sim rigs and remotely connect them sim rigs to them real cars and let them race by controlling them real cars remote from them sim rigs. you will quickly found it sucks as best drivers would be drivers who just learn how to drive a car without feeling car, and we would have hotlapping race they would be spread so much and driving alone, no wheel to wheel fights etc. and most of them would quickly crash xD just as ACC multi looks like xD
put real drivers to sim rigs and remotely connect them sim rigs to them real cars and let them race by controlling them real cars remote from them sim rigs. you will quickly found it sucks as best drivers would be drivers who just learn how to drive a car without feeling car, and we would have hotlapping race they would be spread so much and driving alone, no wheel to wheel fights etc. and most of them would quickly crash xD just as ACC multi looks like xD
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Deleted member 963434
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Deleted member 963434
now imagine next F1 race they put all drivers into sim rigs and connect them real cars to be remote controlled from that rigs they drive. THEN YOU HAVE simulator with 100% accurate physicks. you think they would drive the same? and thus would race be good to watch? for sure Lando and Verstappen be best cause they drive a lot iceRacing, BUT i would not be surprised if cars in real life controlled from them rigs would be even more stable and easier to control from remote rigs than virtual ones in iceracing xD
