Is VR dead?

Deleted member 197115 · Apr 2, 2020

Interesting numbers from most recent SteamVR HW survey. We officially have more VR users than 2080Ti owners.

More Than 1 Million Steam Users Now Have A VR Headset: Here's Which Ones

Valve’s Steam Hardware Survey now includes any VR headset used in the past month, revealing that 1.29% of users have a SteamVR compatible headset. UPDATE April 2: a few hours after the publication of this article, Valve modified the March Hardware Survey figures without explanation. The...

uploadvr.com

anton_Chez · Apr 3, 2020

Well obviously that means that sim racing developers and developers in general should now focus far less on offering 4K Ultra settings visual experiences at high frame rates. Isn't that what the nay sayers of VR in sim racing titles hang their hats on, that VR users are a niche market?

Regardless of your stance, as a customer paying money for a product or service you should always demand more, not less.

RCHeliguy · Apr 5, 2020

Sounds like a pretty big improvement from the previous Pimax headsets.

However he says that immersion is still much better at 120fps with the index vs. 75 fps with the Pimax 8KX.

While he says he "used to say" he couldn't see a difference between 90fps and 120fps, he said running at 75 fps felt painful in comparison to 120fps.

Also he said the distortion was still very noticeable on the 8KX even at "Normal" FOV, but that they haven't finalized the distortion profile for the 8KX.

He says that Half-Life Alyx is optimized enough that a 2080Ti can run at full 8K at 75fps.

His final review was that he thought it was a tough sell compared to the Index which he sees as a superior product, however he said that if you were only in simulators and demanded the highest resolution than it might be for you.

What he seemed to gloss over is how well it worked in upscale mode at 90fps.

My thoughts are that
1. It isn't soup yet. They haven't provided the final audio solution or finished optimizing the lenses, so it might do better when it is finally released.
2. 75fps is a deal breaker for me and since the 8KX is hobbled by the bandwidth of the current display port technology, I consider this product DOA. When the next generation video cards with latest DP spec are introduced it still won't be able to run at a higher frame rate.

anton_Chez · Apr 5, 2020

All headsets are going to struggle as their image increases resolution. The bandwidth is not limited to the 8KX but the Display Port itself. So with both the most resolution and FOV, something had to give. I wouldn't call 75hz a deal breaker for me at all. I run my sims at 80hz on the Index and having a 64hz mode with that sort of image quality and FOV is perfect for me.

If I can avoid motion smoothing, I'm happy to use 60hz on a VR headset to obtain that quality image and FOV.

I have one on order and am not confident in keeping it, but the hz limitations are not an issue for me. There is also the possibility of running in the upscale mode, which may be able to reach 120hz. This would shift the unit back in line with the Index, with a bigger FOV, less demanding resolution requirement compared to the 4K native mode. All that remains to be seen is whether or not the upscale mode still looks better than the Index. If it does, it's probably the best of all worlds in a single headset, just not all at once.

People can pick their preference then and also allow for faster video cards to come out while using the upscale mode.

RCHeliguy · Apr 5, 2020

It is ONLY a limitation of the OLD Displayport spec supported in existing video cards.

Last summer a new Displayport spec was released that will have no problem running 120fps at 8K. The fact the Half-Life Alyx will support that now is amazing to me!

If history is any indication the upcoming 30 series cards will support the new displayport spec.

So as I said before this headset is being born hobbled without any way to reach its full potential.

Maybe out of sync with the technology it needs is a better description.

I'm sure the resolution is amazing to see, but I know I couldn't live with that display rate.

BrunoBæ · Apr 5, 2020

anton_Chez said:
The bandwidth is not limited to the 8KX but the Display Port itself.

Am I wrong if I say that I have seen it mentioned somewhere that a future Pimax 8KX firmware update can get the set to display 90hz when the next version of DP is launched?

RCHeliguy · Apr 5, 2020

According to the current specs, the chip used by the 8KX doesn't have Displayport 2.0 support.

DSC | www.analogix.com

www.analogix.com

BTW 2 x 8K at 120fps with 30bit HDR color would be perfectly acceptable to me
Displayport 2.0 looks like the BOMB!

DP 2.0 will support full (uncompressed) 24bit RGB for 2x 4K (3840x2160) displays @144Hz
or 2x 8K (7680x4320) displays @120Hz with 30bit HDR (with DSC)

DisplayPort 2.0: Everything You Need to Know | Digital Trends

The new DisplayPort 2.0 standard is the highest bandwidth connection we've seen for a dedicated display connection. Here's when to expect it and how it works.

www.digitaltrends.com

BrunoBæ · Apr 5, 2020

OK.
I take it as you are right - but that is a bummer by Pimax

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: Then this could be a good reason to start the soldering tool up - after receiving the 8KX

Deleted member 197115 · Apr 5, 2020

BrunoB said:
OK.
I take it as you are right - but that is a bummer by Pimax

Not really, they can just add 8KXX model to their confusing already lineup to make people upgrade.

RobertR1 · Apr 5, 2020

anton_Chez said:
All headsets are going to struggle as their image increases resolution. The bandwidth is not limited to the 8KX but the Display Port itself. So with both the most resolution and FOV, something had to give. I wouldn't call 75hz a deal breaker for me at all. I run my sims at 80hz on the Index and having a 64hz mode with that sort of image quality and FOV is perfect for me.

If I can avoid motion smoothing, I'm happy to use 60hz on a VR headset to obtain that quality image and FOV.

I have one on order and am not confident in keeping it, but the hz limitations are not an issue for me. There is also the possibility of running in the upscale mode, which may be able to reach 120hz. This would shift the unit back in line with the Index, with a bigger FOV, less demanding resolution requirement compared to the 4K native mode. All that remains to be seen is whether or not the upscale mode still looks better than the Index. If it does, it's probably the best of all worlds in a single headset, just not all at once.

People can pick their preference then and also allow for faster video cards to come out while using the upscale mode.

I'm back n forth on cancelling mine because of the next gen DP lifting the restrictions. I think the v2 model with the higher display port will just have a longer shelf life. Tough choice though as I do want pristine clarity for racing.

RCHeliguy · Apr 5, 2020

RobertR1 said:
I'm back n forth on cancelling mine because of the next gen DP lifting the restrictions. I think the v2 model with the higher display port will just have a longer shelf life. Tough choice though as I do want pristine clarity for racing.

Considering It's already April and they still have the optics under development, my concern would be that by the time they finally release The 8KX, the 30 series cards may only be a couple months away. Pimax has a pretty solid history of having their release date slide multiple times.

This a serious horse before the cart situation.

If they delayed the release so they could get a Display Port 2.0 compatible chip in place, that would be worth a delay. Although I would still have issues buying a product before it had reasonable testing done and until the 30 series arrive with DP 2.0 capabilities there won't be a good means of testing at least with a product that would typically be used with it in the real world. However I understand that NVidia does typically send out early development copies to companies.

BrunoBæ · Apr 5, 2020

If just the Index had a FOV of 160-170 the choice wasnt that hard

RCHeliguy · Apr 5, 2020

BrunoB said:
If just the Index had a FOV of 160-170 the choice wasnt that hard

When our PC hardware can drive it, I think there will be new VR headsets to take advantage of that new found power.

It's just not here yet.

Deleted member 197115 · Apr 5, 2020

RCHeliguy said:
When our PC hardware can drive it, I think there will be new VR headsets to take advantage of that new found power.

It's just not here yet.

It doesn't have to be brutal PC power, VR will never take off with high hardware requirements only lucky few can afford. With properly implemented foveated rendering and some processing offloaded to HMD, it shouldn't be the case.

RCHeliguy · Apr 5, 2020

Andrew_WOT said:
It doesn't have to be brutal PC power, VR will never take off with high hardware requirements only lucky few can afford. With properly implemented foveated rendering and some processing offloaded to HMD, it shouldn't be the case.

The VRSS that I've been using is a baby step towards this on RTX cards.

Maybe the 30 series RTX cards will have an optimized section for Foveated rendering and support the few headsets with eye tracking.

Each new generation of GPU's tend to be 30% more powerful. You never know.

Still now you are adding more complexity and cost to the VR headset. Also remember that VRSS is only supported in some titles, so there are limitations currently to how this is implemented.

Right now VRSS only works with some titles and only RTX cards. Foveated rendering will very likely have similar restrictions.

I'm not suggesting that it won't eventually get here, but I think if this was doable now and wouldn't break the bank, VR headset companies would be jumping all.over foveated rendering.

Deleted member 197115 · Apr 6, 2020

RCHeliguy said:
The VRSS that I've been using is a baby step towards this on RTX cards.

Maybe the 30 series RTX cards will have an optimized section for Foveated rendering and support the few headsets with eye tracking.

Each new generation of GPU's tend to be 30% more powerful. You never know.

Still now you are adding more complexity and cost to the VR headset. Also remember that VRSS is only supported in some titles, so there are limitations currently to how this is implemented.

Right now VRSS only works with some titles and only RTX cards. Foveated rendering will very likely have similar restrictions.

I'm not suggesting that it won't eventually get here, but I think if this was doable now and wouldn't break the bank, VR headset companies would be jumping all.over foveated rendering.

This is the wrong path IMO that only helps NVidia sell new GPUs.
What AMD and not the latest and greatest Nvidia users are going to do?
HMD shouldn't be barebone display with lenses, it can certainly carry supersampling function, including foveated SS to unload GPU at least a bit.

anton_Chez · Apr 6, 2020

If current situation and current headsets are anything to go by, nobody is going to be using 4K native mode at 120hz anywhere near the 8KX's lifespan. Most titles barely run at that hz on the Index, a significantly easier HMD to power.

Rob, I probably would cancel mine too because I love the Index that much and sort of made the decision purely because of my backer upgrade path option. If I didn't have a time limit on it, I would have waited until people had them in hand. If I cancel now, I will be refunded in USD, so thanks to Corana, yet again, I lose as the exchange rate is poorer now than before.

On the other hand, I keep it, use it, determine that I would rather just keep the Index and sell it within Australia. With the exchange rate the way it is, my backer discount PLUS the fact that people won't be able to get any for a while most likely, I stand to make a fairly decent profit from it for my troubles.

I just think it's silly that people argue about not reaching a goal that is not going to be obtainable anyway, DP restrictions or not. No other HMD offers the screen specs of the 8KX, so it's not like you have anything to compare it to and make a better purchasing decision. Not currently anyway. The Index is capable of 144hz, I use 80hz on all titles, and have to lock to 40hz on ACC for a pleasing image. With a smaller FOV, less pixels to render, all on still a powerful GPU in the 1080Ti. I am worried I won't ever hit the 75hz barrier, let alone worried about nearly double that.

RobertR1 · Apr 6, 2020

Yeah having reverb sweet spot clarity across the wide fov will be amazing. Keep in mind due to the lower speed of the panel and not needing supersampling you will reclaim those resources to drive the native resolution. I don’t touch ACC so can’t comment there but AC should be fine if you oc your 1080ti.

HoiHman · Apr 6, 2020

I've made a couple mods / improvements to my Valve Index which increase comfort and FOV

I sacrificed one Valve Index Facial interface and removed the foam from the plastic structure. I applied the facial foam layer directly on the Valve Index. It allows my face to go much deeper into the HMD and it puts my eyes almost directly against the lenses.

Sometimes i even need to dial the lenses one step back so it's not jammed into my eye socket, giving me maximum FOV

Here's picture of my Valve Index and a picture of the unmodded version below for comparison. As you can see there are quite a few mm to be gained when removing the plastic part of the HMD facial interface.

The next logical step was increasing comfort and lowering the pressure on my face. So i added any extra head support on top and applied some counter weights at the back.

No i can just slip on the HMD like a old baseball cap, no need for adjusting the tension. It just hangs on top of my head pretty loose, only appling a very light to no pressure to my face. Because it's so good balanced out, it stays in place even during some intense rally sessions in Dirt Rally 2 with the SFX100.

Last mod i did was removing the headphones and replace them by a set of Bose 700 headphones with active noise cancelling which filters out the noise of the motion rig completely.