Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

[metalnwood]

I look forward to hearing how you think it feels replacing the springs with solids.

I am too lazy to do anything with the rig at this moment. I have my seat on springs only the LFE is mounted to the seat mounts isolated by the springs, my tst and 4 minis are bolted direct to the seat so I doubt they really benefit from the springs.

As I say I certainly remember motion being dampened and it would be interesting to know if the better trade off is no springs to keep the short sharp motion but closer mounting of tactile to the seat, with these big units we can makeup for the losses anyhow. Well it's a theory, who knows.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Well it's a theory, who knows.

Exactly! No point in speculating when you can find out.

BTW, I'm not saying this will happen in the very near term, but I will get to it.

 

[Mr Latte]

Apologies, but can you clarify the objective of this test?

If Mark is removing his seat for other tests.
I assume you can run with only Haptics and no motion.

So regards the DBox haptics and helping to determine with those how the RaceBass isolation is dampening those as part of the concerns you highlight.

He can simply stand on the isolated plate Vs standing on the rigs side profiles. Or if he wants to upload a video with glasses of water to help visually highlight. You can also get some decent vibration apps for phones or tablets and compare readings with the same settings applied with the plate to the main rig frame.

Who has done that before?

Increased motion settings will likely help with any dampening but it would be good for Mark to have a baseline experience from a solid mounting to then compare.

I don't think the differences will be that substantial with some increased settings for the motion, but the benefits of what can be achieved with additional tactile including nice isolation from a complete immersion experience should outweigh any loss in motion. Particularly as we see most owners typically use reduced settings with motion.

You make it out to be an issue, but I've yet to read of a motion owner with the RB kit installed that felt it was that much of a detrimental difference and several people have motion systems with such.

The question is what effects from the DBox haptics are the best or worth keeping on if indeed people have advanced tactile already purchased and installed.

 

[NetLawMan]

Good question. I haven’t tried that. I suppose you could turn off everything in the SW but engine vibration and the two road texture related options. But I am still not sure that would fully shut off motion as the two are integrated. Only testing will tell.

That said, while that could allow for a more academic comparison, dbox is designed as a motion system with integrated haptics and I don’t think it would purchased for haptics alone. It is already known that dbox haptics cap at about 95hz. Therefore the true comparison is [dbox plus dbox haptics] vs [dbox plus high end haptics], each evaluated working together as a system.

Either way, I am game for and curious about any testing people want to do!

If Mark is removing his seat for other tests.
I assume you can run with only Haptics and no motion.

So regards the DBox haptics and helping to determine with those how the RaceBass isolation is dampening those as part of the concerns you highlight.

He can simply stand on the isolated plate Vs standing on the rigs side profiles. Or if he wants to upload a video with glasses of water to help visually highlight. You can also get some decent vibration apps for phones or tablets and compare readings with the same settings applied with the plate to the main rig frame.

Who has done that before?

Increased motion settings will likely help with any dampening but it would be good for Mark to have a baseline experience from a solid mounting to then compare.

I don't think the differences will be that substantial with some increased settings for the motion, but the benefits of what can be achieved with additional tactile including nice isolation from a complete immersion experience should outweigh any loss in motion. Particularly as we see most owners typically use reduced settings with motion.

You make it out to be an issue, but I've yet to read of a motion owner with the RB kit installed that felt it was that much of a detrimental difference and several people have motion systems with such.

The question is what effects from the DBox haptics are the best or worth keeping on if indeed people have advanced tactile already purchased and installed.

.

 

[NetLawMan]

If Mark is removing his seat for other tests.
I assume you can run with only Haptics and no motion.

So regards the DBox haptics and helping to determine with those how the RaceBass isolation is dampening those as part of the concerns you highlight.

He can simply stand on the isolated plate Vs standing on the rigs side profiles. Or if he wants to upload a video with glasses of water to help visually highlight. You can also get some decent vibration apps for phones or tablets and compare readings with the same settings applied with the plate to the main rig frame.

Who has done that before?

Increased motion settings will likely help with any dampening but it would be good for Mark to have a baseline experience from a solid mounting to then compare.

I don't think the differences will be that substantial with some increased settings for the motion, but the benefits of what can be achieved with additional tactile including nice isolation from a complete immersion experience should outweigh any loss in motion. Particularly as we see most owners typically use reduced settings with motion.

You make it out to be an issue, but I've yet to read of a motion owner with the RB kit installed that felt it was that much of a detrimental difference and several people have motion systems with such.

The question is what effects from the DBox haptics are the best or worth keeping on if indeed people have advanced tactile already purchased and installed.

I think the point I am trying to make is that it is not clear that dbox has the ability to use solely haptic vibration. That is because micro-movements are part of the experience and seem to be integrated throughout. For example the suspension (road texture) option in most games.

This is where there is a potential impact to experience based on use of vibration isolation components in the rig. For main movements, you can always just make them more intense (in dbox terms) to compensate for dampening. I am not sure that such a compensation scheme (which is effectively a sledge hammer approach) works for micro movements and actuator based haptics given the extreme amount of subtlety and nuance they generate.

I don’t have isolation components on my rig so I won’t be able to test. What I can share is that similar to RCHeli’s experience, the more solid the rig end-to-end, the better the experience has been. Let’s see what he says

 

[RCHeliguy]

BTW I'm not removing my seat. I will simply loosen one isolation corner at a time, slide out the donut/sprint and slide in a solid block to take it's place. I'll do the same on the pedal deck. I'll use the same bolts to secure them.

 

[RCHeliguy]

In other news.....

Intel 13th gen coming in a month... with 15% faster single core processing and the potential for OC'ing upto 6GHz ( if you have the power )
Nvidia 4090 coming next month... with likely well over 2X the power of my 2080Ti ( if you have the power )
ATX 3.0 Power Supplies coming soon ( to give you that power )

Fortunately there is AC in my basement media room and "Winter is Coming"

Now where are the VR headsets that would prompt me to upgrade my computer? If NVidia actually announces something in October, I'll likely be foaming at the mouth. Otherwise.... meh.

 

[RedBull48]

In other news.....

Intel 13th gen coming in a month... with 15% faster single core processing and the potential for OC'ing upto 6GHz ( if you have the power )
Nvidia 4090 coming next month... with likely well over 2X the power of my 2080Ti ( if you have the power )
ATX 3.0 Power Supplies coming soon ( to give you that power )

Fortunately there is AC in my basement media room and "Winter is Coming"

Now where are the VR headsets that would prompt me to upgrade my computer? If NVidia actually announces something in October, I'll likely be foaming at the mouth. Otherwise.... meh.

Perhaps the Varjo Aero would be a worth while upgrade should you chose to do so.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Perhaps the Varjo Aero would be a worth while upgrade should you chose to do so.

I've followed the Aero's progress closely, but would prefer something more main stream and feature complete. I'm completely sold on the compromises and decisions Valve made with the Index and I'm confident that the next thing they release will be something I want.

Not calling anything right or wrong. This is entirely personal priorities and preference.

 

[Mr Latte]

I think the point I am trying to make is that it is not clear that dbox has the ability to use solely haptic vibration. That is because micro-movements are part of the experience and seem to be integrated throughout. For example the suspension (road texture) option in most games.

This is where there is a potential impact to experience based on use of vibration isolation components in the rig. For main movements, you can always just make them more intense (in dbox terms) to compensate for dampening. I am not sure that such a compensation scheme (which is effectively a sledge hammer approach) works for micro movements and actuator based haptics given the extreme amount of subtlety and nuance they generate.

I don’t have isolation components on my rig so I won’t be able to test. What I can share is that similar to RCHeli’s experience, the more solid the rig end-to-end, the better the experience has been. Let’s see what he says

I have said this before, either you are interested in expanding your tactile immersion or you are not. Yet you seem to have convinced yourself that DBox haptics and an added unit for "Audio Tactile" is good enough for you so it should be good enough for others.

Relying on that, then, you are not close to the potential we can achieve from effects design. How or where these effects are output and placed into our bodies, using a tried and tested combination of hardware. Such hardware installed more directly to the user's body, can deliver not only, much more advanced effects than what motion haptics offers but produce increased dynamic range and much greater clarity from overtones applied in effects.

This is why you see already in a short space of time, lots of DBox or other motion owners moving towards the pioneering work myself or others are trying to do with advanced tactile.

Let me point out something.
A TST unit as an example can output all its energy over a single bolt. While it also supports an attachment. This can be the minimum contact surface area with whatever it's attached to.
My point intended here is, that even a single bolt for contact is enough for vibrations to travel sufficiently.

The RB isolators are designed so that the dual neoprene isolators and spring will have a reduction in what vibrations pass through. It won't fully prevent them from passing.

The bolt they use is "tactile live" with the attached surfaces it is bolted to so any vibrations, should still travel directly via this bolt.
The springs are stiff and the user can adjust the compression to their preference/weight of seat/user combination.

To further compound this point regards just a bolt as the contact point for vibrations to travel. Regardless of the tactile being used as an example, many users with tub-based race seats.

The contact points for their seat to the rig and for all vibrations felt in their seat is also only via 4 bolts attaching the seat to the seat risers/supports.

So I would expect DBox haptics to still travel through the RB isolator bolts pretty well as intended. How much it restricts it, I can't say but I never heard of any specific performance concerns as issues from motion owners. Nor have I heard of people talking about the loss of micro-movements or their importance that you highlight.

I think most users who spend the money on DBox and apply isolation like an RB concept for additional tactile that Mark now has installed.

In adding such, we would assume they are interested in going with advanced tactile. Simply because they want the best options for tactile, to further their immersion and enjoyment and rely less on the motion haptics. This way to achieve a much better combination of pro-quality motion and pro-quality tactile.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I wouldn't waste the electrons typing a response to him.

In the end it doesn't matter what I find. If I find anything that remotely supports his current frame of mind, he will feel justified. If I find something different he won't believe it or he will go on about how the extra effort it too much to be worth doing so he will stick with what he has.

He's just a broken record going on and on repeating the exact same thing over and over and over again.

I won't mention him by name or reply to him at this point. There is no point.

 

[RCHeliguy]

 

[NetLawMan]

I have said this before, either you are interested in expanding your tactile immersion or you are not. Yet you seem to have convinced yourself that DBox haptics and an added unit for "Audio Tactile" is good enough for you so it should be good enough for others.

Relying on that, then, you are not close to the potential we can achieve from effects design. How or where these effects are output and placed into our bodies, using a tried and tested combination of hardware. Such hardware installed more directly to the user's body, can deliver not only, much more advanced effects than what motion haptics offers but produce increased dynamic range and much greater clarity from overtones applied in effects.

This is why you see already in a short space of time, lots of DBox or other motion owners moving towards the pioneering work myself or others are trying to do with advanced tactile.

Let me point out something.
A TST unit as an example can output all its energy over a single bolt. While it also supports an attachment. This can be the minimum contact surface area with whatever it's attached to.
My point intended here is, that even a single bolt for contact is enough for vibrations to travel sufficiently.

The RB isolators are designed so that the dual neoprene isolators and spring will have a reduction in what vibrations pass through. It won't fully prevent them from passing.

The bolt they use is "tactile live" with the attached surfaces it is bolted to so any vibrations, should still travel directly via this bolt.
The springs are stiff and the user can adjust the compression to their preference/weight of seat/user combination.

To further compound this point regards just a bolt as the contact point for vibrations to travel. Regardless of the tactile being used as an example, many users with tub-based race seats.

The contact points for their seat to the rig and for all vibrations felt in their seat is also only via 4 bolts attaching the seat to the seat risers/supports.

So I would expect DBox haptics to still travel through the RB isolator bolts pretty well as intended. How much it restricts it, I can't say but I never heard of any specific performance concerns as issues from motion owners. Nor have I heard of people talking about the loss of micro-movements or their importance that you highlight.

I think most users who spend the money on DBox and apply isolation like an RB concept for additional tactile that Mark now has installed.

In adding such, we would assume they are interested in going with advanced tactile. Simply because they want the best options for tactile, to further their immersion and enjoyment and rely less on the motion haptics. This way to achieve a much better combination of pro-quality motion and pro-quality tactile.

In the interest of not bogging this thread down, if you define haptics as purely vibration, then yeah, sure. But systems like dbox combine vibration with movement, which is another dimension (like peanut butter and chocolate), bringing more body senses into the picture. In my own system, I can run dbox only and get a very satisfying experience. If I run haptics only (for example front and back, even based on telemetry), I personally get only the 40% of the experience.

Especially if you consider that for more immersive rigs, there is the usage of multiple sensory experiences (vibration, haptics, motion, visuals, human interface- wheel and pedals, gforces, and wind). When combining multiple sensory experiences, it’s the blend of this experiences that the user feels (not each one individually). Therefore perfection of, or hyper-focus on, just one sense doesn’t work because the last 5% of perfection is inherently lost in the mix. Thus for me, as a motion user, I don’t need perfect haptics . I need haptics that play a sufficient enough role to properly blend in. That doesn’t mean haptics are bad. I think they are good. I just take haptics for what it is.

Out of respect for RCHeli, why not move this discussion branch to your thread, although I am not sure there is anything else to say.

 

[NetLawMan]

I wouldn't waste the electrons typing a response to him.

In the end it doesn't matter what I find. If I find anything that remotely supports his current frame of mind, he will feel justified. If I find something different he won't believe it or he will go on about how the extra effort it too much to be worth doing so he will stick with what he has.

He's just a broken record going on and on repeating the exact same thing over and over and over again.

I won't mention him by name or reply to him at this point. There is no point.

Hmmm. Its not clear who you are referencing to. In either case, I would say that what you find is what you find, and at least in my case whether you draw a similar conclusion or a different one, it really makes no difference to me. I have been very clear to state that "for me, I don't need extra magic haptics". That is a far cry from the proclamations of haptic necessity and vaporware promises we hear pretty regularity here - and which is what I have called out for being what it is.

I have been curious though, "would someone who actually has both systems say both are worth it together"? If it's your opinion based on actual use, that's cool.

I am pretty cordial to you, so you should do the same. But it seems like you won't, and that is fine. I think I know what you will conclude, which is what most others with this system conclude. I just hope you don't do a disservice to others by curbing your enthusiasm just because you are mad at me over nothing. That would be sad.

 

[NetLawMan]

I wouldn't waste the electrons typing a response to him.

In the end it doesn't matter what I find. If I find anything that remotely supports his current frame of mind, he will feel justified. If I find something different he won't believe it or he will go on about how the extra effort it too much to be worth doing so he will stick with what he has.

He's just a broken record going on and on repeating the exact same thing over and over and over again.

I won't mention him by name or reply to him at this point. There is no point.

PS, since you have mentioned not saying my name a few times, how about "The Forum User formerly known as ..."

 

[Kenny Paton]

Let's keep it civil gents.

 

[RCHeliguy]

In other news...

I thought I might try to 3D print a D-Box Gen 5 carpet slider so other people could just print something that worked well without needing carpentry skills.

Unfortunately even after sanding the bottom down to 5,000 grit sandpaper and polishing, PLA is just not very slippery on carpeting and despite the fact that the 3D printed solution has more surface area ( doesn't show well in this picture ), this is a failed experiment.

I could redesign this a bit, make a template and to route a piece of UHMW to size and then use a quarter round on the UHMW and I should have something that is just as slippery. Unfortunately while I think that would look pretty cool, it would still require someone have tools and carpentry skills to build as well as being a bit costly. At that point you may as well machine the entire thing out of a solid block of UHMW.

 

[RCHeliguy]

FWIW I haven't used my rig in a week and I'm just not feeling it.

I look at my rig and it feels like work rather than fun. I've had numerous opportunities to use it with large blocks of time, and I keep deciding to do something else.

Hence the, "I'm taking a break" post.

When my rig feels "fun" again, I'll get back into things.

The bickering doesn't help matters and I'm feeling more and more like any empirical testing won't matter, so why bother. That feels like work and my rig is for my amusement and fun.

 

[RedBull48]

In other news...

I thought I might try to 3D print a D-Box Gen 5 carpet slider so other people could just print something that worked well without needing carpentry skills.

Unfortunately even after sanding the bottom down to 5,000 grit sandpaper and polishing, PLA is just not very slippery on carpeting and despite the fact that the 3D printed solution has more surface area ( doesn't show well in this picture ), this is a failed experiment.

I could redesign this a bit, make a template and to route a piece of UHMW to size and then use a quarter round on the UHMW and I should have something that is just as slippery. Unfortunately while I think that would look pretty cool, it would still require someone have tools and carpentry skills to build as well as being a bit costly. At that point you may as well machine the entire thing out of a solid block of UHMW.

View attachment 601712

Out of curiosity how was the finish when sanding and polishing? I was considering doing a similar process on some larger print pieces. Did you do a wet sand by hand or what method did you use?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Out of curiosity how was the finish when sanding and polishing? I was considering doing a similar process on some larger print pieces. Did you do a wet sand by hand or what method did you use?

This is how it looks to the naked eye.

This is close up with a macro lens.

I could have buffed it just a bit more, but don't think it would have helped for my needs.