Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

[anton_Chez]

Probably a wise decision.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Yup. Time to smell the roses for a little bit before tearing up the garden again!

This is also something I do when I feel like something hasn't completely crystalized into an elegant solution. When things feel like they are about to get messy, they probably are and I'm not there yet.

 

[anton_Chez]

Well adding more of those large units is a great way to make it even messier. You’ll soon run out of regular real estate on your rig and need more elaborate solutions to incorporate them.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Well adding more of those large units is a great way to make it even messier. You’ll soon run out of regular real estate on your rig and need more elaborate solutions to incorporate them.

Absolutely more elaborate!

I was looking at that armature idea and realized very quickly that the 10mm ball bearings would be DESTROYED by a BK CT. So I went up to 12mm HSS rods with sleeve bearings with a PTFE + Lead interior coating just so they could withstand the abuse. Of course by adding an armature vs. a hard mounting, there is the potential for all kinds of creaks and rattles and the whole concept could be a real mess.

I also realized that I should compress the top hinge, but still need the BK lowered so it doesn't interfere with my inverted pedals.

Anyway, so will keep mulling things over.

I do wish I hadn't cut up my previous foot plate. It would have been a great platform to drill holes in.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Forget that mess! That is just too much complexity for my rig and I can foresee a lot of trickledown because of it.

After doing a bit of research, I think I'd be much better off mounting a single TST429 dead center of my foot plate.

Because of it's increased efficiency the TST429 can produce plenty of power for the suspended mass of only a 1/4" aluminum foot plate. Filtering is absolutely key to making this work for me. From what I've read on this if I tweak a negative filter centered around 60Hz to "tame" it's lowest sweet spot I can run an overall higher volume and get the lower frequencies to surface.

Unlike the BK-CT which is very limited in terms of what it can do at one time, the TST has the ability to handle more complex wave forms ( ie. multiple effects ) better. It won't be perfect, but it will be a very usable improvement that fits my rig well.

I found a $50 off coupon and pulled the trigger. So I'm going to remove the 2 x Auras and install the new TST429 in their place.

That will bring the number of Auras in a pile up to four.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Ready to drill and countersink my footplate for the TST429.
When that's done, I'll take a pass at the top surface with my random orbital sander to start with a clean statin finish.
Then I'll plug all the beveled M4 holes with short SS bolts and locknuts.

I'll initially secure the TST429 using a 3/8 lock washer, but I may add some blue Loktite to be safe.

For now I'll continue to use this plate, but I have enough aluminum to make another from scratch if I get the urge.

I adjusted the 40x40 cross support backwards a bit and moved the corner braces to the front which I've been meaning to do so the pedal deck can slide forward without interference from the flight pedals. The TST429 will have plenty of room now.

Drilled, beveled and sanded.

M4 bolts and locknuts filling holes. 3/8" countersunk bolt fits cleanly.
Ready to install the new transducer!

With only one channel under my foot plate that leaves me with a free channel.

When the exciters are available on September, my thoughts are that I could "initially" run an array of exciters off of it to play with them as a single unit on my seat. 2P + 2P or 3P +3P. However I will run full speaker wire pairs to the front of the chassis so that connect them to another quick release plug and drive them independently for time delay effects like Mr. Latte mentioned.

I believe my seat setup should be compatible with many of his effects. The foot plate will be compromised a bit, but I'm hopeful that with the right equalization curve I can get a fairly powerful, reasonably wide frequency spread there.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Another flying saucer has landed! The TST429 is mounted solidly to my front foot plate and I've been putting it through it's paces.

In a nutshell it is powerful, has a large effective frequency range, but my notch filter idea didn't make the lower frequencies powerful enough to use below about 25-30Hz. Despite it's range and more speaker like operation than my BK, it still does have issue running multiple effects concurrently. So while I can feel a very solid effect clicking the test button in SimHub, I can't always notice the effect while driving when other effects are going.

Now that my feet are numb from a bit to much vibrations, I realized that I could have saved myself some money and put a TST329 there as well. It will belt out effects with MUCH more authority than 2 x Auras I had earlier, but as Mr. Latte mentioned a single transducer in front still gets saturated when running multiple effects, so the idea of having multiple transducers would still work better.

The pairing of the TST329 Gold mounted to the right of my seat and BK-CT is working wonderfully. I'm very satisfied with them.

I spent some time dialing Dirt Rally in and I'm getting much better effects than I was before. I've added Road Rumble to iRacing for when I'm running over a shallow curb with indentations, I can feel this effect on some tracks. I've yet to notice the Jump landing effect. Not sure what it takes to trigger that.

So this is better in that I can feel a lot more, but it is still distracting and I need to back effects off.

 

[Mr Latte]

Good to see you trying things, tactile is very much about experimentation. The 429 is so highly-priced it is hard to recommend for most people. I have acquired now 6 of them over time (in storage) but I have only bought 1 new one, getting a few real bargains along the way.

It is no surprise to me what you are saying, but it is good having others finding similar factors.
I honestly believe when you have others backing up points that (have already been expressed) here by me or others then that helps affirm things for people looking to buy into this gear and put more trust in the recommendations offered.

I don't see myself as the "be all" of tactile and I think some get the wrong impression. One of the reasons i challenge people to do tests is to confirm the points I recommend are accurate or do indeed perform well but it's always better coming from more than one person or source, right?

I don't "push" ways of doing things because they are "my ways" no not at all. I will "push" for them because of the results they produce and I'm confident in my own approach because of how much testing and experimentation my own rig build tests involved.

The Ts
A user comparing a TST 209 to say a TST239 Silver or a TST329 Gold, they may not feel a great difference between T209 & Silver. The Gold certainly has a more noticeable energy output. If we are using a large BK with these, some may ask whats the point in having a T329 GOLD to a T209 when you use a large BK for the low end.

It's a good question, the answer is (from my effects perspective) that several effects we may apply the layers to (both) units and we create the crossover within the DSP so that each unit is working well within that 30-50Hz range. Some people may prefer to have the BK range kept to only 30Hz some may want it higher, part of this is preference tuning. The Gold will also be better on its own when we go past the 60Hz in which the large BK really drops off and the 60-80Hz range is important for effects as these are generally within the last frequencies we can apply as fundamental frequencies and still make use of giving them additional harmonics. So the different TST models will still bring some performance benefits in how good certain frequencies may feel, it's not just about volume, it's also how well the unit produces the various frequencies.


Some info that may be of interest to some...
A Stage 1 style installation using BK/TST combo for front and rear brings the 1-200Hz range. So firstly, you now can feel MUCH better sensations for whatever effects you choose to run. It's a matter of then building more accomplished effects offering greater depth and higher detailing.

What however will happen, is that only so many effects can be operating on the units at the same time. You reach a point of diminishing return. On basic tactile people repeatedly use the strongest frequencies 30-50Hz, yet when more effects are applied, the amplitude of those frequencies increases, so what you get is the strongest Hz the unit outputs, then being further increased from the frequencies the unit doesn't produce so well. The user ends up only feeling the effects using the units most prominent frequencies. Some people term this as "less is more" as by reducing the number of effects they are reducing the peak of the amplitude applied and have less variation in gain between the unit's best output frequencies and its not so good output frequencies.


I See Them...
However, my approach to effects with the new concept gives us more control. I can easily see with my monitoring how/when different effects are active, exactly what frequencies they fully generate and send to the transducers. So we can get "more clever" in effects development. For example, what Hz these effects use for the effects that are more constantly operating at the same time, can we reduce overlapping, can we place some layers to different units, like the additional exciters?


She Cant Handle it Captain
The biggest challenge comes when we seek to have highly advanced much more engrossing engines. These operate more constantly than some other effects. Not so much at idle are they an issue but most cars will be very active from 2nd/3rd - highest gears and repeatedly using rpm effects that operate within the 60-100% rpm range.


Vroom Vroom
The exciters on the seat help with us apply additional effects to reduce the saturation. Well, clearly we have more channels lets use them wisely eh. However, In my own testing and shared with some beta testers. We have to consider the idea of having a more engine-orientated "WOW" based profile that is exciting and engrossing with the engine, some people absolutely love a great engine and boy are we going to take these much further.


Helmet On
We have to consider things also from a racer's perspective. Using, a more race-orientated-based profile. This focuses on the primary gear-changing engine sensations but also highlights, effects relating to the car handling and chassis. So the same hardware but used with different effects brought to the fore and suiting a different scenario but still seeking engrossing immersion.

Users can easily load profiles to suit their mood or user scenario. Profiles can be made for specific cars, specific sims or user preferences in how certain effects are mapped to certain channels.


Best Engine & Chassis Solutions?
Having more units and some focused purely on rpm and speed is another approach as then it lets you still have the amazing engines, but still get the chassis feedback. I have experimented a lot with this but still have work to do in how we help balance different effects operational at the same times as well as how we go about installaing additional units to a rig if the user ever wanted more.

So a "Stage1" introduces a user to the quality potential of the effects that are being developed but it will have some limitations.


"Those Profiles" - The biggest Disappointments I find with tactile
This may be a case of lack of, but can we be honest, is it true that most of you here have likely 1-3 profiles you use nearly for everything, tut, tut, tut...

I am willing to stick my neck out, that few people, with all your time already owning tactile, even those with many years experience. Can some or any of you, share on these forums dedicated profiles that really offer awesome immersion and applying the 1-200Hz range tactile can offer.

That actually, indeed, you are using excellent quality of effects like the two scenarios I highlighted. In offering ways to bring the best from tactile that is possible with tactile as an immersion tool.

Do we have anyone, wants to share a profile (they created themselves) and feel is a great example for others here to try or we use it as a benchmark?

Is there a single resource anywhere that can offer people a place to download and use high-quality profiles to suit either the common/budget hardware or the best that is available?

From the East To The West?
What sim company has specialized in tactile immersion, show me what I buy, I want the best tactile, and do they offer professional quality profiles for their hardware to enjoy with the most popular sims?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Let me add that after bringing ALL the effects down a few notches more effects are able to be felt.

I think I was running all my effects over the top and it was fatiguing to me. Now that I'm finding the sweet spot at lower volumes I'm feeling like I could enjoy longer stints behind the wheel.

I don't regret purchasing the TST329 and I am very impressed with it. I don't think I would have wanted to go below a TST329 in front, but I wanted to try the TST429 just to see if I could pull some lower frequencies out of it. Don't get me wrong. With the same effect going to both the 429 and 329, the 429 is definitely more powerful and has more kick, but it's definitely in the "plenty" category. I think it still needs something else with some low end kick to pair with.

I'm still pretty happy with the effects I've gotten out of the TST429 in front. It's a LOT more versatile than the Aura's were.

I have started to try to break up the frequencies where each effect lives and I'm hoping as I tweak that I'll get better definition of the effects. Some are very clear, mostly the one's I've been focusing on. I need to go back through everything I've got.

I'm also sometimes finding that I've got something I don't like happening and I'm blaming the wrong effect and I have to strip them back and find out where the source is.

There is a wheel slip side effect that I don't like kicking in when I'm accelerating hard out of the pits and apparently losing a bit of traction. Then again maybe I need to realize that is happening....

 

[blekenbleu]

Despite it's range and more speaker like operation than my BK, it still does have issue running multiple effects concurrently

I speculate that, rather than inability of shakers (or exciters) to simultaneously deliver multiple effects,
it may be that human tactile perception has not evolved to simultaneously sense multiple effects from a single location.

• Human hearing is roughly like an array of tuning forks with a range of resonant frequencies, allowing simultaneous audio stimuli to be distinguished.
• I am unaware of comparable broadband tactile mechanisms. Instead, Meissner's and Pacinian Corpuscles reportedly have sensitivities peaking around 35 and 250 Hz, respectively.
• Consequently, multiple tactile transducer deployments may be more effective by stimulating somewhat different areas.

I further speculate that effectively mixing multiple stimuli to a single transducer may be more efficiently done nonlinearly, e.g. tactile signal A*B conveys more/better than A+B:

Ideally, SimHub would be extended to allow the output of one ShakeIt effect to alter the gain (amplitude) of another.
Alternatively, some external Windows APO synthesizer could multiple one ShakeIt audio channel stream by another.

 

[anton_Chez]

Wheel slip is a big one that doesn't seem apparent a lot of the time but it's actually happening A LOT. You'll find that for that particular effect, you'll want to make sure you're using an appropriate gamma curve that leaves out a lot of the meaningless slip and focuses more on the larger more detrimental slides that may be worth investigating as to why they are happening. Similar concept with the bumps and road effects. I found with the G-Belt that with bump effects active that there is a lot of "noise" without adding a great deal of worthwhile information which quickly becomes annoying and as you aptly put it, fatiguing. We filter a lot of this stuff out in a real car, we don't actually realise we're feeling a lot of what's there and it's because it's really subtle. In the interest of providing added information to improve driving in a sim, this is even more the case that we do not need a lot of the range of a single effect, just the portion that actually matters.

So for the wheel slip and bump / road effects, definitely turn most of them down unless you've got a separate effect for large bumps which you'd most likely want to send most of the energy and low hz to. Once you've got the volume and hz range in the ball park for a given effect, try to play with the threshold, gamma curve and other filters to get the effect to feel more natural and informative rather than just noise.

For the record, I've never EVER had anything but the highest praise and gratitide for the effects that Rodney has shared and helped me with my in tactile journey. It's a shame that recent events have left a bit of a bad taste in both our mouths, but that's what happens when two bulls butt heads I guess. I would HIGHLY recommend, if you're not already doing so, using the latest package of effects as a starting point that includes pretty much everything you'd want to include in a tactile profile. I'm doing that now and have been for a while, with modified hz and gain levels to match my old smaller units. Now that I have the larger units, I can just use them basically verbatim unless I have an issue such as yours where I feel a certain effect is overly active.

 

[anton_Chez]

Ideally, SimHub would be extended to allow the output of one ShakeIt effect to alter the gain (amplitude) of another.

Unless I'm mistaken, can you not give a certain effect priority over others within then software? Perhaps something like a wheel slide or a brake lock up may be more beneficial to come through at full force than say, the engine vibe for that particular scenario. I will have to go back and have a look but I'm almost certain that I've seen in the effect settings somewhere that you can prioritise an effect should you wish to do so.

 

[blekenbleu]

there is a lot of "noise" without adding a great deal of worthwhile information

Indeed, part of the challenge at first live track events of each season for me was relearning how to ignore much of the overabundant tactile information.
Filtering was particularly an issue in stiffly suspended cars with engines and transaxles rigidly attached to chassis,
but adapting was still wanted even for only modestly modified street cars.

 

[RCHeliguy]

There is a priority check box, and some effects like wheel slip have a check box to disable them if you have the Wheel lock effect setup.

As I lowered the intensity of all my effects more of them are able to be noticed. I can definitely feel numerous effects through my seat without difficulty.

Anyway I'm off to go shopping with my wife. Made some good progress today, but feel like I'm still only part of the way there.

 

[blekenbleu]

can you not give a certain effect priority over others within then software?

I have not used that, but anyway my goal is to more efficiently use single transducers to deliver multiple effects,
e.g. one effect based on frequency changes and another using amplitude changes.

 

[RCHeliguy]

View attachment 497678
I have not used that, but anyway my goal is to more efficiently use single transducers to deliver multiple effects,
e.g. one effect based on frequency changes and another using amplitude changes.

Good luck!

BTW in case you haven't noticed. I gave up fighting with tactile and now I'm just getting getting the right equipment to do it right. I'm not done yet, but I've got a lot of what I was after already.

 

[RCHeliguy]

OK, next experiment.

I've ordered 2 x Earthquake Sound MQB-1 Pro's to install on either side of the TST429 on my foot plate. However rather than perfectly centering them, I'm planning to position them a bit closer to the back of the plate. This will allow me to move them a bit closer to center and move them closer to my heels which are on the back 1/3 of the plate. The mounting plate that they supply will make a great template for the 3 hole pattern, that I can use with a center punch.

These are rated 15-40Hz with power centered around 22Hz and are supposed to be very quiet with no overheating issues or noise issues like the BK LFE minis are more likely to have. They are rated at up to 500W, and are supposed to handle power well. For now I'll run them as a single channel in parallel to get their individual 8 ohm impedance down to 4 ohms combined which will pull more power out of a single channel of my amp, hopefully up to 300W each.

Even if the MQB-1's are a one trick pony centered around their peak at 22Hz, I think that would be enough to get specific effects to come through loud and clear while the TST429 is busy doing other things. However I'm hoping to get a bit more out of them than that. We will see.

I do not expect them to be the equivalent of a BK-CT or BK-LFE, but a pair of them should be pretty powerful. Keep in mind that they are only moving a somewhat isolated foot plate that weighs less than the the TST429 or the pair of MQB-1's. It will have my feet resting on it, but compared to a seat supporting me, it should be a much easier load to move. The main reason I'm going this route is that I prefer the simplicity of a direct mount solution and they will fit under my foot plate without requiring that I remove my flight pedals. If I went the cantilevered approach there is a lot more potential for failure points and for creaks and other noises to develop.

Amazon.com: Earthquake Sound MQB-1 Pro Low Frequency Effects Transducer : Electronics

Amazon.com: Earthquake Sound MQB-1 Pro Low Frequency Effects Transducer : Electronics

www.amazon.com

 

[RCHeliguy]

"Those Profiles" - The biggest Disappointments I find with tactile
This may be a case of lack of, but can we be honest, is it true that most of you here have likely 1-3 profiles you use nearly for everything, tut, tut, tut...

I am willing to stick my neck out, that few people, with all your time already owning tactile, even those with many years experience. Can some or any of you, share on these forums dedicated profiles that really offer awesome immersion and applying the 1-200Hz range tactile can offer.

That actually, indeed, you are using excellent quality of effects like the two scenarios I highlighted. In offering ways to bring the best from tactile that is possible with tactile as an immersion tool.

Do we have anyone, wants to share a profile (they created themselves) and feel is a great example for others here to try or we use it as a benchmark?

I'm willing to share the effects I'm creating, but based on what I've seen, I'll need at least 3 profiles in iRacing to work well with the cars I use. The difference between a BMW M8 GTE and a Ferrari 488 GT3 is pretty massive in terms of wheel slip. The Ferrari tends to understeer and takes braking easily with ABS, the BMW wants to oversteer and you have to be very careful not to be on the brakes hard unless you are straight. The MX-5 can slide and slide and slide and be completely controllable. Right now I've been compromising between the 488 and M8 and I think it's a bit better for both, but that's for wheel slip. The telemetry from both vehicles is different and the MX-5 even more so. When I go to a Porsche Cup car and BMW M4, it's all different again.

Sadly I'd say the effects I want to feel vary from track to track as well. So in a racing season I could see practicing for the next track and dialing in the wheel slide in for that track and car so I have information that I can use to help modulate my speed and brakes and not just feel.

Given that I have a custom isolated foot plate + TST429 & 2 x MQB-1's ( soon )
and an NLRv3 pivot with custom hard mounts+ BK-CT & TST 329
the applicability of what I create may have some crossover with your Phase 1 setups.

I am curious what exciters will bring to the table, but I can already tell that the key to this is NOT overdoing things. Everything needs to blend in the background naturally and only draw your attention when it is helpful.

The reality is that I won't have the patience to dial in effects for every car and track combination I use and I will likely settle on a few reasonable compromise settings that basically work and then I'll slightly tweak them if something feels off.

 

[Mr Latte]

I am not a fan of the auto-calibration and tend to turn it off to find my own preferences in settings. This way, I believe the effects work within the range you set them, while auto-calibration over a few laps or time (not certain) must form some sort of averaging to reduce peak outputs of effect settings needing better balancing or calibrating?

I think someone mentioned the "Jump" effect and while I do not have any rally sims installed that it may "hold" an effect peak for longer to suit a car landing. Though it is not supported on all titles.

Admire your enthusiasm recently but do not believe you are taking the right path with the hardware, but it is your money and your rig.

Still amazes me, that a tried and tested solution with more testing and experimentation put into it, than probably any other on these forums. When handed to you guys on a plate and still you seek to do other things, lol. I could understand if you found recommended things did not work for you as well as intended and then done something different. Just baffled why you would spend this much money on impulse getting things on your own assumptions they will deliver?

Yet many newcomers to tactile are jumping at the Stage 1 configuration, some being their first foray into tactile as well (7 that I am personally helping at the moment) and possibly, this seems why stocks for the same components are low in Europe at least anyways...

I do believe there would be a way to get both a TST and BK to operate with your current rig design and without it being that difficult. I just don't get why so many of you do things, you hope or assume might work without even asking in advance. Yet, then avoid the things that these forums have covered so often or have been tried/tested by several members and do work well.

 

[RCHeliguy]

@Mr Latte Thanks! I'll check to see if I left the auto-calibration on!

If these MBQ-1's turn out badly, I'll move on. I'm not worried about turning this aluminum plate into swiss cheese. I have plenty of aluminum in my shop Maybe I'll come up with a way to fit a large BK in there eventually, but I haven't found anything I'm happy with.