Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

[Mr Latte]

Oh godfather of tactile

we know you sell the one and only tactile solution.

Please keep in mind that not everybody has the time and income to "to do it right" by your standarts.

We appreciate the wealth of knowledge that you let us participate in and I especially am gratefull for your tipps for isolation.

What I can´t appreciate are the snide remarks for your "slow pupils" and the people that don´t answer your homework or let alone do things differently.
Yes, its aggravating to see the same questions every two month again for knowledge that is already out there and to have to answer questions for people who cannot be arsed to read four pages back.

But on the other hand:

last time I checked we were not in a pupil/teacher relationship and nobody ows another anything.

Why not try to make live easyer for all involved and only answer the questions you find worthy?

Why not not work with the selected few and let the rest stumble around?


Hoping for a better and friendlier community Carsten

Snide remarks?
Excuse me, search the forums, see what help others have given back in reports of configuring their own tactile. What effects settings, what profiles, what hardware settings, what DSP they have presented on the forums.

We have lots of people will ignore good advice, repeatedly, why else you think I get frustrated or have a tone?

People here can choose what advice they want to take or what to disregard.
You are welcome to highlight advice I have given that has not performed or worked well and criticise that advice, challenge it and show better solutions. I even state this many times but where are the other threads on how to do things, where are the guides, what are these alternatives?

Thats the point I raise, because as a community here, most often when people even get my help (several user rig builds) or often many hours in responses in DM they do little to help others or come back with feedback on what they liked or didn't like. Why not have a go at them, or moan to them that all they did was show off their rigs but do little to help with how they use or enjoy their tactile eh.....

If my own testing has helped to develop a solution that works, then it is reasonable to ask people to not skip steps or elements what make that work as a combined solution. I have shared a solution I see as offering the best entry into higher end tactile. It can be started with as little expense as 4 exciters on a seat, then adding TST and then later adding BK units. As a configuration, it is expandable over time sir, if the user wants to further it or spend more on tactile.

Show me a better-performing solution.

If you want people to work on other budget solutions then make your own threads, start your own adventures, do your own testing, your own effects creation. Work with others (if they even will help) to compare different possibilities.

 

[RCHeliguy]

@Mr Latte,
For the moment I'd like to focus on dialing in what I have before I bite off another chunk. I can see a lot of untapped possibilities and I would like to understand how to modify settings like your layered engine rpm to fit other cars. I have more work to on applying per channel signal filters to maximize the capabilities of each transducer and I'd like to map out how each of the telemetry effects sent by iRacing and Dirt Rally 2.0 work.

In regard to Equalizer APO, I can use RoomEQ to generate frequency sweeps and plug the XLR connectors currently going to my amp, directly into my Scarlett 2i/2 on the channels for the TST and CT to measure what I'm getting out. That should at least give me an indication of how well the Equalizer APO software works. My question will be how close it resembles the the curves it shows me, but I will take some time to test what it is or isn't doing.

It might be worth getting canned white noise, pink noise and music sweep files that have more resolution in the bottom end. I've found a number of examples like this one.

The Ultimate Bass Test | Ultra Low Frequency Range Test

A frequency sweep from 10 Hz up to 200 Hz.

www.audiocheck.net

I'd be happy to install a set of your Rac-Bass springs on my foot plate, if you think they would work well there.

Thanks again!

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte,
For the moment I'd like to focus on dialing in what I have before I bite off another chunk. I can see a lot of untapped possibilities and I would like to understand how to modify settings like your layered engine rpm to fit other cars. I have more work to on applying per channel signal filters to maximize the capabilities of each transducer and I'd like to map out how each of the telemetry effects sent by iRacing and Dirt Rally 2.0 work.

In regard to Equalizer APO, I can use RoomEQ to generate frequency sweeps and plug the XLR connectors currently going to my amp, directly into my Scarlett 2i/2 on the channels for the TST and CT to measure what I'm getting out. That should at least give me an indication of how well the Equalizer APO software works. My question will be how close it resembles the the curves it shows me, but I will take some time to test what it is or isn't doing.

It might be worth getting canned white noise, pink noise and music sweep files that have more resolution in the bottom end. I've found a number of examples like this one.

The Ultimate Bass Test | Ultra Low Frequency Range Test

A frequency sweep from 10 Hz up to 200 Hz.

www.audiocheck.net

I'd be happy to install a set of your Rac-Bass springs on my foot plate, if you think they would work well there.

Thanks again!

I have one of my 1-1 consultation clients from UK that has a VR3 and installed on it IIRC

2x Large BK
2x TST Seat Sides
1x TST Seat Rear
4x Exciters

He is probably taking it close to the weight limits but in his own words to me over whatsapp.
He prefers this tactile immersion (with the beta advanced effects) he gets than the motion. Have not heard from him much in a while as he has been overworked and other family things.

I was keen to get him to test the springs on the seat with a newly modified frame similar to how I had helped Screaminbejesus with his VR3. Key is to keep the height of the seat lowered using a dropped platform/support from the original (H) to then support the springs. The spings are only 3" high so exactly 1" taller than RDB120 isolators.

For tactile monitoring, the best solutions are not cheap, they are however professional applications, used in the audio industry.
Cubase Pro 11 - Supervision / Fabfilter Pro Q 2 or Q3 / Nugen Visulasier 2 / Ozone 8 or 9

I don't think we gain much use from just sinewaves or sweeps etc but are better to focus on effects creation and settings within Simhub. Then testing directly real-time generated effects. Why, well because this is what we are going to be using.

Personally I am going through every single Simhub feature to better grasp how/what it offers from the lowest-highest settings to help determine how we then better apply effects operations. As for creating effects, perhaps there is some degree of skill to this that comes from the user's own growing experience. I have not seen anyone else try to develop multi-layer effects in the approach I have taken. I cant share all things I have learned, (@3000 Hrs effects testing) but what I can do, is tell people here how well they are being received.

I know the approach is delivering better tactile than people have ever had before, this coming from their own mouths.

 

[RCHeliguy]

OK, I'll focus my efforts on understanding the effects in SimHub and how they map to the telemetry I have to work with for now.

I completely understand how your UK customer could feel tactile gave him more than motion compared to an NLRv3 if he is only track racing. And given a G-Belt & Tactile, if I were only driving on tracks I think I'd be good to go too!

For rally and for flight use, the motion makes a big difference. Landing from going airborne in dirt rally just feels all kinds of wrong without motion and a bit of motion while flying a helicopter or plane is extremely immersive in VR since it maps well to flight stick motion and definitely makes you feel like you are in the aircraft.

I've already got my NLRv3 mounted as low as it can go with adequate ventilation on custom mounts I made out of 6"x6" 1/4" thick angle aluminum with the seat hard mounted to the mount deck. Given the weight of the G-Belt, 2 Transducers and my weight, I don't want to increase the lever arm the actuators are pushing. it would just slow the responses.

I may consider replacing my foot plate Aura's with a single center mounted TST329. The TST has just enough clearance to fit. I can order a 3/8"bevel head bolt from McMaster-Carr to through bolt it shallowly to the bottom of my 1/4" thick by 6" wide foot suspended plate centered on the plate. That would free up a spare amplifier channel.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

 

[RCHeliguy]

Any benefits to using 6 exciters if I don't have room for another BK or TST ? Or would that be overkill ?

That would be 240W worth of exciters on a channel that has plenty of power and my amp can easily push a 2.66 ohm impedance.

 

[blekenbleu]

Any benefits to using 6 exciters if I don't have room for another BK or TST ? Or would that be overkill ?

That is a perfectly reasonable technical approach. As for whether it is overkill, one could try 4 before 6 ..

 

[RCHeliguy]

I went ahead and ordered a few of these bolts.

My hope is that I can create a very secure attachment to a piece of 1/4" aluminum plate and my TST 329.

The bevel head is part of the 1" length, so this would be a single centered hole in the middle of my 1/4" foot plate and allow me to replace both of my Aura's with a single 329. That would leave me a channel free to drive a bunch of exciters.

I'll test it out first and make sure I'm happy with the effects in that position and if it appears to work well, then I'll order that other transducer which will open the way for the exciters in September when they are back in stock.

 

[RCHeliguy]

That is a perfectly reasonable technical approach. As for whether it is overkill, one could try 4 before 6 ..

Need that volume knob that goes up to 11

I can fit 2 exciters on each side of my seat and then one more on each side of the back of my seat. I'm not sure how vibrations coming from the side compare with those from the back.

 

[blekenbleu]

how vibrations coming from the side compare with those from the back.

I found them easily distinguishable.

 

[Mr Latte]

I found them easily distinguishable.

Shoulders / Sides / Lower Back were the positions I found worked best on my seat. Lets us gain a very good spread of a "particular effect" being output if sent to all 6 units.

We can then also apply a delay to certain channels to give the sensation of an effect fading out and this going up or down the seat. Much of it, depends on how creative the user gets with their effects eh?

Does the seat cushion-based tactile operate as individual channels or in-series pairs?

For me, the fact that only Simhub makes it possible to route what you want where you want with no limitation on a number of channels used.

Then it is a wasted opportunity for the price of additional affordable amplification not to have all the exciters used as independent channels. With this, then you have much more control over how you apply certain effects but additionally can better reduce the number of effects "per unit" for greater clarity for the effects you place on each pair.

 

[blekenbleu]

Does the seat cushion-based tactile operate as individual channels or in-series pairs?

SimHub drives my 4 cushion-based pucks each separately,
i.e. 4-channel chassis corner configuration,
using mostly 4-wheel loaded slips.

have all the exciters used as independent channels

A pair of exciters, wired in series but mounted in parallel, are attached on a frame at my lower rear seat
to provide lateral haptics for trailing oversteer. A single lateral exciter ran too warm IMO, so added another.
Driving that pair separately with orchestrated signals might have been effective, but I did not try.

A single exciter temporarily mounted to the seat back at shoulder height was easily sensible in testing,
but was removed in favor of shoulder harness rollers for active belt tensioning.
That might be a good place to apply tactile effects for harsh shifts.

 

[Mr Latte]

SimHub drives my 4 cushion-based pucks each separately,
i.e. 4-channel chassis corner configuration,
using mostly 4-wheel loaded slips.


A pair of exciters, wired in series but mounted in parallel, are attached on a frame at my lower rear seat
to provide lateral haptics for trailing oversteer. A single lateral exciter ran too warm IMO, so added another.
Driving that pair separately with orchestrated signals might have been effective, but I did not try.

A single exciter temporarily mounted to the seat back at shoulder height was easily sensible in testing,
but was removed in favor of shoulder harness rollers for active belt tensioning.
That might be a good place to apply tactile effects for harsh shifts.

Yes our approach is quite different based on the hardware being used
You are using the exciters more as a primary tactile unit as best you can.

I generally incorporate them more (while not soley) for a role of generating certain effect layers, from a multilayer effect. An example would be, layers designed/intended for higher frequency detailing or harmonics matching the fundamental frequency applied to a Buttkicker.

My own approach is, that even an effect like "wheelslip" is not restricted in its tone generation to a "limited performance band" that the used transducer/exciter can work with. Then that exciter/transducer constantly having to operate as a primary unit.

It's possible to get much more authentic feeling sensations when we can apply the 1-200Hz for any effect how we please. This is one of the primary differences perhaps with my own approach to effects and applying specific layers for the BK, the TST and the Exciters that combine together to generate the complete effect.

I have a couple of beta testers helping to develop my effects that own d.i.y or Simx harness and yes they speak of how good it aligns with tactile for immersion. One GT3 experienced race driver highlighted that for him the tactile and the belts combined was better in what it offered in feedback than motion.

Each person will however maybe have their own preferences

 

[RCHeliguy]

Mr. Latte has been inspiring me and I think I've found a way to get both a BK and a TST mounted to my foot plate.

1. I have Bevel head 3/8" x .75" bolts coming that will allow me to nearly flush mount a TST329 to the underside of my foot plate which will fit my rig without intruding on my flight pedals.

2. I'm considering mounting a BK to a plate between two aluminum arms hinged under a piece of 40x40 profile. The arms will extend under the front foot plate.

Each arm will consist of two pieces of 1/4" aluminum sandwiching two bearings at the center pivot and under the foot plate. There will be two rail clamps around each bearing bolted to the underside of the profile and the foot plate.

At the business end of this lever I'll sandwich a piece of 1/4" angle aluminum between the arm halves and extend it towards the center. Then I'll mount a couple square pieces of tubing and a support plate for the BK.

The rods will be fixed and the bearing centers have grub screws to lock them in place so there is no side to side motion.

Given the weight difference between the TST and BK, I plan adjust the lever arm so their weights approximately cancel out.

Or at least that is what I'm thinking of at the moment. This will put more vibration into the pedals through the hinge even though the foot plate is isolated.

I already have the aluminum and for about $50 I could build this mechanism and test it out with my Concert.
Similarly I could mount my TST329 on the foot plate after my 3/8" bolts arrive today.

First I think I'll see how the foot plate feels with my TST 329 in place compared to the two Auras.
Then I'll think about the BK design a bit more taking the TST329 into account.

 

[Mr Latte]

Without drawings, I can't quite gather what you're intending but we can attach a BK to a plate that is installed somewhere you have more space. Then from this plate/position use some profile extension/lever that goes directly to and connects with the foot deck.

The energy will still travel.
Plenty of ways you can attach the BK and TST but some may not look that great.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Here is the rough idea.

The CT will need some square tubing and likely this would need another support in front. A plate a shown here would flex badly and tear the attachment points and bearing up.

 

[Mr Latte]

Here is the rough idea.

The CT will need some square tubing and likely this would need another support in front. A plate a shown here would flex badly and tear the attachment points and bearing up.
View attachment 496318

That could work but it does nothing to isolate/maintain the energy/detail (just) in the pedal section.
I assume your current design connects this section with the main rig frame.

So yes having some form of isolation on the main rig frame (like a platform that is isolated) for this to connect to would be a good step up from what you currently have had. Can you come up with that you think?

 

[RCHeliguy]

The foot plate is currently suspended, so the vibration from the TST would go straight into the plate.
The BK would primarily go into the plate, but some residual would go into the center support.

There is a captured M8 bolt with surgical tubing through the foot plate hole so the metal doesn't rub.

I have it a LOT looser than shown here.

 

[Mr Latte]

I would recommend you use the BK and TST you have to test how good that isolation solution you have works. There will be a big difference in the energy and range of frequencies a BK/TST combo will output to those Aura.

If you have a spare plate or even wood drill it to mount the BK and TST to it just for testing purposes. Then when testing the unit place glasses of water on the main rig frame or use vibration apps on phone/tablet to compare how the vibes appear on the plate and then what is also escaping into the main rig?

We will never prevent vibes from transferring but in upgrading the tactile I think you need to test/consider different isolation solutions too as they should also help increase the detail that is maintained better within the plate...

 

[RCHeliguy]

Given a sound card typically can drive 6-8 outputs and exciters are cheap, What's a good amplifier to drive a bunch of 40W transducers?

12 channels rated for 500W each into 4 ohms. Seems a bit overkill!

I doubt they are full 500W per channel, but it would seem I could never run out of options with this. ( but it's sooooo ugly! )

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I guess most people are going with one of these?

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[RCHeliguy]

I think I'm going to press the "pause" button for a minute. I'm not hitting the "stop" button, but I would like to understand how to make use of what I have and understand more concepts in general before I continue to build things out.