Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

Could you please elaborate?
If people, research the best isolation products, they combine metal and rubber-based solutions. Springs are also a well-used method. I could not find an off-the-shelf solution that offered everything we needed for the range of bass frequencies Simhub may output.

I am not an expert on this or a qualified engineer...
To be fair to some others we have here, that appear to be experts in advice on this topic. Yet they do not base what they offer, on physical tests. Nor do they elaborate on how/why their advice will operate with the wide range of frequencies that Simhub may generate and which is also very dependent on the level of hardware being used with it.

From my own perspective, I can only share and help bring a product/solution that was developed over time which worked very well on my own build and bettered all other isolator solutions I purchased and tried. Testing was done with over 12 make/models of transducers, so basically covering the very best to the common entry-level, users' potential installations.

I learned a lot from doing just that, trial and error, and applying some creativity regards discovering a solution to be simple to install and affordable.

The springs shown in this example can withstand well over 150KG each. They are stiffer than used on some high-end pedal solutions. If we use a softer spring it is more likely to dip, so it was finding a balance that kept the height minimal, was strong enough, and could be easily adjusted by the user.

Background Development
I will show this simply to give some perspective, below are some previously shared images of my own efforts with my own build...

My own custom rig, it comprises of two L/R independent structural and isolated sections. I re-built an entirely new base at the start of this year. It is extremely heavy/solid. The reason for this having independently isolated sides, was to maintain as best possible the "stereo tactile" and limit crosstalk between the left/right positional effects, retaining it to the correct channels as the telemetry generates it.


Here we see the middle pair of independent sides. Yet they are missing the top section plates my seat/pedal support frame will be attached to. Notice that even after all the isolation materials including top/bottom 8mm plates the vibes have to pass through. I also minimised as best possible, their physical connection into the horizontal support frame underneath.

These have only 4x bolts for each isolation tower. Yet even with all these materials, vibes can still transfer down through one side, over the horizontal support and up through all the isolation again on the other to be felt (@25% energy) on the opposite side.

On my build, each side has grouped pairs of springs on isolation towers. So 6 springs each side (2x pedals 2x mid, 2x rear) for the length of the cockpit. With one side using these same springs as shown and the other using a slightly softer option. The stiffer option seemed better than using the softer option and tightening it more.


The RACEBASS solution bettered this $200 worth of multi-isolator combo.


How it all began, early testing with the springs.

As I say, I am not an expert, what can be said is, based on actual tests with transducers and Simhub. These are the better, performing solution that worked overall the best than other solutions I tried. Note that some solutions I tried costing 3x more per unit than what these will cost.

People often wonder what keeps me with my own build. They do not realize I am seeking to build as part of a hobby project, a rig specially made for the best tactile immersion. Simply because my own build will go to crazy lengths regards the tactile it incorporates. So there is a difference in adding tactile to a cockpit and seeking to find ways to build a cockpit, specifically targetted at achieving something with tactile that no other build yet has.

Not as to boast but to give an idea, I have spent over £1500 on isolation testing/development for my own build. This is a key element for my own rig and an important one. It will likely offer isolation well beyond what many builds have but even with this, it is impossible with ultra-low subsonic frequencies (with multiple large BK) to fully control crosstalk.

So part of my own costly experimentation/findings over the last 18 months, regards stereo tactile, or in seeking to build the best "corners" based installation possible. Well, it has been a bit diminished, even with my best efforts not being able to eradicate stereo crosstalk.

My findings are, that accurate positional/placement for effects is not as important as the "quality and range in the felt sensation" of the effect being generated. Yet we still can use multiple transducer combos to expand the number of effects we can enjoy and these offer much greater performance than the typical approaches with tactile currently bring.
 
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This morning I started to setup my exciters. All 4 of mine are working properly.

1. They do not require much power. I've got my amp set at about 25-30% per channel.
2. Yes, you can feel these little guys surprisingly well. So no surprise, they do work.

I'm running them through the t.racks DSP box to shelter them from frequencies that can blow them up. I can already tell they will add quite a bit to the mix.

View attachment 510880

Unfortunately, my 7.1 Audigy 5/RX is a DUD driving analog outputs. The SPDIF to my surround sound runs great, but I can only get stereo out of this card. With stereo I get separation. If I set it up Quadrophonic channels 3 and 4 leak across all the channels in a major way. Setup as 5.1 or 7.1 is worse. Only the subwoofer channel works.

I've ordered a new 5.1 audio card that has no SPDIF, so it has to be 100% analog to function properly. It should arrive tomorrow.

We need to use analog out...
To confirm are you getting each unit operating individually?
Check for me the switch at the back of the EPQ304
 
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We need to use analog out...
To confirm are you getting each unit operating individually?
Check for me the switch at the back of the EPQ304

The EPQ304 is set to stereo on both switches. Not Mono and not Bridged. I checked that first.

I even disabled the SPDIF on the card at one point. No change.

I was watching using the DSP software.
I would click the Test button in SimHub for each channel and see which channels lit up in the DSP.

Channel 1 & 2 gave L & R
Channel 3 & 4 would light them all up.

I could run each pair of exciters individually by swapping the plug I was using. So that DSP -> Amp -> Exciter path works properly for each L/R pair.

I'll have a new 5.1 analog only audio card tomorrow. Hopefully that will get me up and running.

FYI, just for grins, I tried to go from quadrophonic to 5.1 on my built in RealTek card. It started to behave funky in 5.1 mode as well, but in quadrophonic mode all 4 channels run well individually.
 
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Spent some time dialing down the BK-CT effects on the seat and tweaking everything in general. Right now it feels over the top especially the rear BK.

Keep in mind that I had recently dialed things down to something more reasonable with my seat's previous transducer mounting. The fact I can lower the transducers power levels more now should mean I can feel more detail and possibly more effects.

Once I get my new audio card and have all the exciters working tomorrow, I'll be ready to start playing/working with Mr. Latte's current list of effects.
 
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Excellent to hear. appears your findings are similar to others in that more energy and detail are retained, so we can achieve a more balanced output from the amps but within that tune the BK/TST/EXC combo to deliver a varied range of effects in tactile, to a level of immersion that no other solution offers.

The feet/pedals won't generate the same potential immersion, primarily as we have much less physical contact compared to the seat. Although, what should now work extremely well for you is how we can apply front/rear effects. Low bass energy from the large BK should pass well beyond your knees.

Also, unlike what you had before with the "Aura Pro". Now your rig offers the full bass, dynamic range capability both front and rear. So let's unleash some more advanced effects to be enjoyed and developed to your preference.

Ref Exciters:
1-2 clicks on the EPQ304 volume should be enough with the Simhub global volume (top left) set to 50-60%. Appreciate if you can you confirm this works okay?
 
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Currently have them at 4 clicks, but I haven't done anything with them yet other than verify that they work.

They bark pretty loudly at 4 clicks when I click the Test channel button, so they may be set too hot.
 
Currently have them at 4 clicks, but I haven't done anything with them yet other than verify that they work.

They bark pretty loudly at 4 clicks when I click the Test channel button, so they may be set too hot.

Yeah my concern is that may be high with some effects and may reduce the longevity of their lifespan. The "Test" on the channel mapping screen I believe just outputs a rather strong @40Hz tone.

Try a gearchange set to output from within the actual sim running and using 40Hz as that is one effect that can peak. Curious what you find is ideal, the soundcard used will perhaps also determine some variations users may find optimal.

I will send you via DM a DSP setting for the BK to try on the t.racks.
 
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I'll end up with 3 video cards on my computer.

Motherboard Realtec 5.1 currently driving my BK/TST pairs.
Audigy 7.1 currently driving my AV receiver when we need to hear computer audio not in VR.
Audigy 5.1 analog output only to drive the 4 x exciters.
 
Good news! It's not a defective BK-CT in front. Much better!!!! I put a straight run of 12Ga speaker wire in place and it worked beautifully!!!! So I have a wiring issue of some kind. I have 16 Ga running to the BK-CT in the back of the rig, so gauge is not the issue, but I wasn't going to give it any excuses.

I've dropped all my effects by 30-50% !!!!!! I can feel all the effects much better now with the levels down.

Some effects are running at only 20-25% in SimHub.

3D printer is making new flight stick quick release parts for the 30x60 profile landing Tuesday. Preordered the Apache AH-64 on DCS. "Projected release date is December 2nd". We'll see...

12GaTest_6992.jpg
 
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New sound card is installed.
NewSoundCard_6994.jpg


Transferred the mag switch and bolts with 30 series T-Nuts to the newly printed flight stick quick release parts. 30x60 profile still on track to arrive tomorrow.
NewQR_6996.jpg


And opened up to verify before ordering a pair of quieter fans for the EPQ304 amp which should arrive on Wednesday. I've secured the cover for now, so I can test the new audio card.
newFans_6995.jpg
 
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Audio cards, crosstalk and SimHub.

I had to exit out of SimHub and bring it back up between configuration changes.

I used the t.rack DSP software to monitor what was happening so I could immediately see the signals that the computer was putting out. The SimHub test signal would generally give me 1-2 bars into the yellow on each channel.

The Realtek 5.1 card built into my MB has good channel separation for 4 channels but only works well in Quadrophonic mode. If I set it to 5.1 the analog channels become problematic and don't work correctly.

The Sound Blaster Audigy RX 7.1 works well with optical out running my AV receiver, but didn't seem to want to drive more than two analog channels without major issues. I'll just call it a dud, but it's out of warranty and I'll just leave it dedicated to my AV receiver to avoid confusion.

My new Sound Blaster Audigy FX 5.1 is driving all 6 channels, but....
If I drive LR + rear LR Channel 1 leaks over to Channel 3 at about -9 db.
If I configure it with LR + Center + Subwoofer and turn off Rear LR then I get 4 channels without cross talk.

So far the FX5.1 is the best I've gotten. I could actually get 6 channels out of it, but Channels 1 and 3 are linked at about -9db. I could probably drive 5 channels out of it fairly cleanly.

Both Sound Blaster cards advertise 106 db S/N ratio, but obviously not between channels.
 
Thats strange stuff. Simhub and soundcards can do some funny things.

I had my two minis under my seat and two on the pedal tray. channel 1,2,3,4. 1 and 2 were obvious under seat, chan 4 was obvious on the pedal tray but chan 3 was really strange. It was the other pedal tray actuator but I swear it felt like it was coming from the seat.

It took some time to find out that chan 3 was actually 1 and 2 combined, like a center channel made from left and right.

At least when I figured that out I could look for the channel that the 4th transducer was attached to and actually use it :)
 
Thats strange stuff. Simhub and soundcards can do some funny things.

I had my two minis under my seat and two on the pedal tray. channel 1,2,3,4. 1 and 2 were obvious under seat, chan 4 was obvious on the pedal tray but chan 3 was really strange. It was the other pedal tray actuator but I swear it felt like it was coming from the seat.

It took some time to find out that chan 3 was actually 1 and 2 combined, like a center channel made from left and right.

At least when I figured that out I could look for the channel that the 4th transducer was attached to and actually use it :)

Mr. Latte has suggested only using 4 channels per sound card because of crosstalk issues. I'm guessing this is why.

BTW it's not just SimHub. When I'm in the Windows configure screen and can test each speaker by clicking on it, I was getting crosstalk as well.

I googled all over the place looking for a single card that might be able to actually put out 8 usable channels. No such luck.

Then I googled for an optical to 7.1 analog adapter. Nope.

I did find an HDMI to 5.1 adapter. So you would first need an Optical to HDMI converter and then run that into the adapter. Seems like a lot of potential lag to me.

It's funny because I was initially thinking that these cards couldn't possibly be as bad as I was reading, but apparently they pretty well universally suck.
 
Mark, the channel leakage is something I have witnessed too. I did not confirm if it’s a partly Simhub issue or driver related with certain cards using uoto the 8 channel mode within Simhub or windows.

One thing you can do is set some effects to a suitable level for the main channels then disable the amp or disconnect the transducer to then feel only the leakage on the other channels.
The question is if for the user it’s much of an issue?
 
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For the moment I have 8 clean channels, so I'm going to call this good "for now".
I will look into this further eventually. Only so much time in the day and I have a lot of work on my plate.
 
good "for now"
If/when you get back to it..
  • Dolby Access has somehow recently been getting installed on Windows 10
    • go to Apps & features to remove it
  • Equalizer APO by itself does not cause such issues, but plugins may.
  • For right-click with mouse pointer over speaker icon in notification area,
    verify that Spatial sound is (off).
  • FWIW, drivers for different playback devices
    interpret configuration options differently
    • e.g. my Realtek mb gives 6/8 independent channels for 5.1/7.1
      but does some (Hafler?) matrix crosstalk thing for Quadraphonic..!
  • It seems that you can get multichannel sound from PC TOSlink to AV receiver,
    which for Windows 10 requires some licensed software, e.g. DTS Connect,
    which may be confounding things.
    • so far as I know, the only way to get multichannel digital audio
      from Windows 10 without licensed software is via HDMI.
 
Just took a quick look.

Dolby Access does not show up as installed on my Gaming PC.
Equalizer APO and Peace were both uninstalled a little while ago. I'm using the DSP's exclusively now.
Spatial sound is off always.
I'm getting clean channels in Quadrophonic mode on my Realtek sound card. The Audigy FX only has stereo and 5.1 modes. In 5.1 mode I can simply disable channels I'm not using. I always run "full range" out of the cards and use the DSP to do the filtering.
I've been running 5.1 optical out to my AV receiver for quite a while. My 7.1 receiver shows up as 5.1 automatically.

PS. I did find Fantec drivers and Thrustmaster HOTAS drivers still on the computer that I got rid of. Completely unrelated, but worth removing.
 
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My 30x60 profile arrived and everything fits beautifully. My flight stick quick release is back in place, as is my flight throttle and collective quick release mount.

There are 12x M8 bolts holding this profile in place so it can stabilize the plate the TST-429 is mounted to.
CenterStickQR_7000.jpg


The stick QR works great, just like before and there is still clearance under the seat when it was remounted.
CenterStickQR_6999.jpg
 
It's looking really tidy! :thumbsup:

I wish I could mount my stick centrally like that, it's very cool. But I've got a Microsoft FFB Joystick and the base is huge so I don't think it would work unfortunately. And I don't think I'm willing to give up the FFB. I don't understand why so few flight controls have FFB, when even the budget steering wheels do.
 

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