Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Good job I asked. They do sell it here with the Mini Concert.

Buttkicker Simulation Kit - 240V Australian Version – Pagnian Advanced Simulation (pagnianimports.com.au)

My advice to you would not be to assume 4 units in a CM-based config using 4x BK Mini is the best way to spend your money.

I would ask you to price 4x BK Mini Concert or 4x BK Gamer packages compared to the cost of
1x Behringer NX3000D and 2x BK LFE (biggest size)

The larger units are in a different league for low bass and one of the biggest screw-ups with the BK amps is no simple way to know what volume each unit/amp is at.

 

[racerooo]

My advice to you would not be to assume 4 units in a CM-based config using 4x BK Mini is the best way to spend your money.

I would ask you to price 4x BK Mini Concert or 4x BK Gamer packages compared to the cost of
1x Behringer NX3000D and 2x BK LFE (biggest size)

The larger units are in a different league for low bass and one of the biggest screw-ups with the BK amps is no simple way to know what volume each unit/amp is at.

This is great information - thanks.

I'm beginning to understand that the recommendation is to have a couple of larger units powered by an NX3000D and a bunch of exciters on the seat. Am I right? Do you not lost detail at the wheels?

 

[Mr Latte]

This is great information - thanks.

I'm beginning to understand that the recommendation is to have a couple of larger units powered by an NX3000D and a bunch of exciters on the seat. Am I right? Do you not lost detail at the wheels?

The additional performance from the larger units is greater than having 4 individual channels but with much less performance.

On lots of people's rigs, they will not achieve well-defined stereo for front and rear wheels. The simple fact is, how they have the tactile installed often will let the energy output from opposite channels combine causing crosstalk anyways.

You can achieve good stereo with the exciters directly attached to the seat and targetted to body regions. 4-6 on the back / side of the seat lets you place more effect layers with greater efficiency but also if you want, you could have 3 units per side applying stereo effects.

Simply it gives you more OPTIONS for how you implement effects.

 

[stigs2cousin]

So, my journey into tactile has begun.

Firstly many thanks to the contributors here, especially @Mr Latte and @blekenbleu,
you have provided lots of information to make the decisions easier.

For now I have a Aura bolted under the seat pan and a Dayton puck mounted into a peace of styrofoam thats part of the lumbar support of my reclinable Recaro Sportster CS.
Powered by an old Pioneer AV Receiver( nominally 100 watts at 6ohm ), external soundcard and Simhub pro.
Setup was easier than i thought, even for a "mechanically gifted" person.
( I hate fiddling with computers)

The aura was tasked with road impact, road rumble and rear wheel slip, the puck with engine RPM, engine vibration and gear change.

After some fiddling with frequencys and gains I was ready to throw the whole shabang out of the window, it was disturbing, not helping to feel and control the car.

Then I tried the less is more aproach and cut it down to:

Aura road impact and gear shift,

puck RPM ( 90% and up, so it´s another form of "shift light")

Especially disappointing was the "rear wheel slip function, it did not help at all.
I have to mention here that I use a Simucube2 pro, so that the wheel slip angle is covered quite well.
My car control improved after deactiviting wheel slip in tactile.

The "shift notification" proves usefull, gear change is nice to have, road impact improves immersion.

Some time in the future I´ll try some exciters on the pedals to try and find a wheel slip/wheel lock solution which now is only per audio.

We´ll see where the journey goes, now it´s time to drive.

MFG Carsten

 

[Terje Helle]

So, my journey into tactile has begun.

Firstly many thanks to the contributors here, especially @Mr Latte and @blekenbleu,
you have provided lots of information to make the decisions easier.

For now I have a Aura bolted under the seat pan and a Dayton puck mounted into a peace of styrofoam thats part of the lumbar support of my reclinable Recaro Sportster CS.
Powered by an old Pioneer AV Receiver( nominally 100 watts at 6ohm ), external soundcard and Simhub pro.
Setup was easier than i thought, even for a "mechanically gifted" person.
( I hate fiddling with computers)

The aura was tasked with road impact, road rumble and rear wheel slip, the puck with engine RPM, engine vibration and gear change.

After some fiddling with frequencys and gains I was ready to throw the whole shabang out of the window, it was disturbing, not helping to feel and control the car.

Then I tried the less is more aproach and cut it down to:

Aura road impact and gear shift,

puck RPM ( 90% and up, so it´s another form of "shift light")

Especially disappointing was the "rear wheel slip function, it did not help at all.
I have to mention here that I use a Simucube2 pro, so that the wheel slip angle is covered quite well.
My car control improved after deactiviting wheel slip in tactile.

The "shift notification" proves usefull, gear change is nice to have, road impact improves immersion.

Some time in the future I´ll try some exciters on the pedals to try and find a wheel slip/wheel lock solution which now is only per audio.

We´ll see where the journey goes, now it´s time to drive.

MFG Carsten

My experience is, like with every new equipment, it takes some time to understand what cues tell me what.
Especially with transducers.

 

[blekenbleu]

Especially disappointing was the "rear wheel slip function, it did not help at all.

The Wheels slip effect, as provided by SimHub ShakeIt Bass Shakers, does not consider tire loading.
During cornering, for example, an inside wheel may be entirely unloaded and slipping a lot, but would not provide much real feedback. I addressed this with a pair of CUSTOM EFFECTS:

• The first effect estimates corner loading, based on changes in speed and yaw, and generates "proxy_G" properties (which are also used for harness tensioning)
• The second effect multiplies WheelSlip properties by appropriately weighted proxy_G properties, to modulate tactile frequency and amplitude.

That SimHub profile is described here and available there: https://blekenbleu.github.io/pedals/GmodulatedWheelSlip.siprofile.txt

My understanding is that the wheelslip property is unavailable from some games;
I use only Assetto Corsa...

 

[Mr Latte]

Wouldnt it be much easier just to attach your .siprofile here with "attach files" below for the effects you want to share. First though, rename its extension to .txt (for attaching here) and we then just need to rename it back and place it in the Simhub folder.

I could compare the activity of your custom effects to others, to see how its activity differs but at the moment I only have a single BK and TST installed for some rig tests.

 

[blekenbleu]

much easier

It was already in GitHub with .txt file extension; any subsequent improvements will be at that link.
The implementation assumes 4 distinctly sensed transducers responding up to around 800Hz

 

[EIF]

I'd like to dip my toes in adding tactile immersion to my rig, starting cheap and simple with one transducer under my seat, powered by a two-channel amp so I can potentially add another transducer later. I've done some reading but I'm not a audiophile and much of the technical stuff is beyond my comprehension.

The Aurasound AST-2B-4 or cheaper Reckhorn BS-200i seem like popular options but I'm clueless about finding a suitable and relatively cheap amplifier. Can someone explain the importance of the impedance rating and how it factors into choice of amplifier? The Aurasound and Reckhorn are both 4 Ohms. I will need a two channel amp at 50 Watts per channel at the very least.

My rig is a very stiff Sim Lab GT1-Evo and the seat is a real car seat with quite dense padding along the bottom so I'm not sure how I will mount the shaker yet. Based on research, I will use rubber isolators on the base profiles of the rig or under the seat where it mounts to the base profiles.

I have a spare sound card and currently use Simhub for dashboard display so I think I'm good to go except for the shaker, amp and connectors. Any advice much appreciated.

 

[Mr Latte]

It was already in GitHub with .txt file extension; any subsequent improvements will be at that link.
The implementation assumes 4 distinctly sensed transducers responding up to around 800Hz

Don’t use GitHub personally or interested and didnt see a simple way to just download.
Maybe it’s me so I will pass. Let's see how others get on or what others think of it.

 

[blekenbleu]

a simple way to just download

On Windows, right-click and "Save link as".

GitHub is useful and relatively painless for preserving and sharing any files and folders
for projects liable to revision.

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

Maybe I´m getting crazy but did any of you VR users find the tactile feedback messing with the headset cameras resulting in the image "vibrating"?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Maybe I´m getting crazy but did any of you VR users find the tactile feedback messing with the headset cameras resulting in the image "vibrating"?

I'm using an Index with light houses, and have used the Oculus Rift with external cameras before that.

To date I've not experienced this issue. I know of people using WMR HP Reverb 2 with full motion and tactile who haven't complained about this, but that doesn't mean that others haven't had this problem.

 

[Mr Latte]

On Windows, right-click and "Save link as".

GitHub is useful and relatively painless for preserving and sharing any files and folders
for projects liable to revision.

I got it but tested it briefly with ACC as had been doing some other tests with it.
Sorry for being lazy as currently only have a PS5 pad set up with the rig build happening and well tbh ACC menu is less hassle to get into from only the pad. I was testing on a TST Platinium 429 and Large BK LFE. For now just placing each wheel/side to operate on each unit.

I think I can see what you're seeking to do in having the varied sound to give a more dynamic range in the felt sensations between the range the effect operates.

The setting you have from @900Hz-30Hz is outputting a whole host of frequencies to over 1KHz. This would likely make it harder to feel other effects in operation on the same unit, when using that approach but it could help gain the extra body in feel it may offer perhaps on some units or dedicating a unit for specific effects roles?

Now I can't say I personally am a fan of the squeal - groan sound approach but I was able to achieve some very nice sensations with the operation of the effect. I was combining the low bass abilities of the LFE & detailing of the TST using from @3Hz - 70Hz with some various layers. I think when you can utilise the lowest bass on suitable hardware, then it gives you that ability to have enough frequency range to work with (in feeling different felt sensations) between the effects low-high values for its output.

I will need to put a bit more into making some nice working layers and compare to another custom Lat G effect I have but I do see from what you have here, in how the effects are operating as having excellent potential.

Would try to encourage you to get ACC (if you do not have it already) and if your willing to help with some effects for it, I don't mind even contributing towards purchasing. However, it's up to you...

 

[Ruttman98]

Rig Update

More teasing of progress.
My new frame rebuild is coming along, here bathed and glowing in ambi-light colour.
Well, firstly it's now, so much stronger than before with an also improved design and meeting the target I am happy with.

Dynamic real-time lighting with the chrome is
one of the features of the build.​

Creative Approach With Speaker Installation?
This large soundbar is old-school, none of that plastic nonsense like today, no sir.
Instead, a big hefty metal casing (13Kg).

Long ago, the YSP 1100 what was once Yamaha's top of the range soundbar costing a whopping £900 when released in 2005. These days as they are so old, you can pick them up for approx £100

I knew these were good and owned a previous Yamaha (800) model in the past as well as having several high-end AV receivers during the old laserdisc and DVD era.

Now, mmmmmmmm.
I have a feeling, nobody has ever built a sim rig using 2x of these in L/R to give a much wider dispersion of either stereo or quad surround?

The floor section, still w.i.p
Note the wifes dresser stool is not part of the build (lol) ​

Well, just part of one area I wanted my own build to be different. Taking audio further than the norm. Each of these units has dual woofers but also an incredible 40 mini drivers, which can control how/where its audio reflects within the room. On top of that, you can have just plain stereo or apply many of Yamahas renowned DSP cinema or venue-based soundfields.

It took a lot of effort to come up with a design that contained and supported these, yet keeps the build compact. It's also much better than where they were placed more under the seat area on the first build.

Below I am having a bit of a poke at the common approach of Logitech 5.1 systems being used on many rigs. Not that they are bad but people will spend more these days on a wheel rim or shifter than they will on their systems audio. What I illustrate here, while I got mine for a bargin and yes they are old. Nor up to date with digital audio formats. On sound quality, these would still outperform many modern £500/£600+ soundbars but having dual units is taking the audio immersion they offer much further than a conventional solution.

5.1 or 7.1 in "sim racing" is rather underused.
It's one reason why I have opted for something different.
This will be one of the things I showcase looking into how sims use each channel.

​

The next phase for my build is the 2nd tier that will support the seat/pedal sections and enable the beginning of installing and testing the tactile with the rigs planned isolation. At least now I have all the tubing and clamps ready to go.

Mr. Latte:

I have been intriqued by the Yamaha YSP-1000, -1100, -4000 ever since you posted your intentions for dual YSP-1100 units! I have been search for a good deal on any of the above and am almost ready to buy QTY: 1 only (for my initial plans at least!)

Do you regard either the microphone or remote as essential for using the various Yahama YSB sound projectors in the close confines of a racing rig? (Often these accessories are not included with these used units after 15 years on.)

The Yamaha mic utilizes a 3.5-in miniplug, so perhaps any mic could be used to make the custom adjustments for room use?

The YSB unit appears to have a row of controls along its base which could be used in lieu of a remote. In addition, remotes do pop up on Ebay on occasion.

Thank you very much!
Chris

 

[Mr Latte]

Mr. Latte:

I have been intriqued by the Yamaha YSP-1000, -1100, -4000 ever since you posted your intentions for dual YSP-1100 units! I have been search for a good deal on any of the above and am almost ready to buy QTY: 1 only (for my initial plans at least!)

Do you regard either the microphone or remote as essential for using the various Yahama YSB sound projectors in the close confines of a racing rig? (Often these accessories are not included with these used units after 15 years on.)

The Yamaha mic utilizes a 3.5-in miniplug, so perhaps any mic could be used to make the custom adjustments for room use?

The YSB unit appears to have a row of controls along its base which could be used in lieu of a remote. In addition, remotes do pop up on Ebay on occasion.

Thank you very much!
Chris

I think the bigger units with more drivers can help give a wider wrap/breadth of sound.
The original 1 series model (looks similar) but did not have the mic option and was trickier to configure.

You dont necessarily need the mic to manually configure these to get a good sound and well Ive not done that yet and even when you do you may still want to do some manual tweaks anyways. I did own several of the highend AV Receivers over the years so the menus are very similar.

As for the remote, you will need it to access most functions as the front controls are mainly power/volume and input
Finding these in good condition with remote and box is hard but they can pop up on ebay fairly often.

Just be aware of the limitations of some older models not having HDMI but these are fine for just pumping out good quality audio from PC for a rig.

 

[stigs2cousin]

"


I'd like to dip my toes in adding tactile immersion to my rig, starting cheap and simple with one transducer under my seat, powered by a two-channel amp so I can potentially add another transducer later. I've done some reading but I'm not a audiophile and much of the technical stuff is beyond my comprehension.

The Aurasound AST-2B-4 or cheaper Reckhorn BS-200i seem like popular options but I'm clueless about finding a suitable and relatively cheap amplifier. Can someone explain the importance of the impedance rating and how it factors into choice of amplifier? The Aurasound and Reckhorn are both 4 Ohms. I will need a two channel amp at 50 Watts per channel at the very least.

My rig is a very stiff Sim Lab GT1-Evo and the seat is a real car seat with quite dense padding along the bottom so I'm not sure how I will mount the shaker yet. Based on research, I will use rubber isolators on the base profiles of the rig or under the seat where it mounts to the base profiles.

I have a spare sound card and currently use Simhub for dashboard display so I think I'm good to go except for the shaker, amp and connectors. Any advice much appreciated.



"
I currently have the Aura under my Recaro sports seat which is also "heavily padded" because it came from my road car.
It´s bolted directly to the lower plastic "cup" that holds the lower seat cushion.
So its in almost direckt contact to the foam which transmits the vibrations quite well.
Should your seat have a wiremesh of sorts to hold the cushion maybe you can find a way to insert a mounting plate into te mesh and bolt the transducer to that?



For amplifcation I´m using an old AV receiver I had standing around which works quite well.
(It should , it´s nominally 100 watts at 6ohm)

I don´t understand this whole Watts/Ohm either so i just matched the impdeance (Ohm) and "overspend" on the power (Watt)
Seems to work, even after driving Glen Sheil with heavy road rumble the Aura stays quite cool.

What in the end motivated me to take action was the video from GamerMuscle:

He also has some ideas where to source cheap amplifiers.

MFG Carsten

 

[EIF]

Yeah I saw that video too ha. I have been thinking of trying that Nobsound amp which is 2x50W though not with the supplied power supply as I understand it. Not sure about its reliability either. By "overspend", do you mean an amp which outputs more watts than the speaker/transducer is rated for. In that case I assume you have to be careful to keep the gain down so not to blow them out?

 

[blekenbleu]

Sorry for being lazy

Your massive contributions to tactile tech surely belie that.
Thanks for being the first (so far as I know) to sample this version 0.1 attempt.

TST Platinium 429 and Large BK LFE

Those are about as different from the 4 Dayton pucks in my ShakeSeat as imaginable.

harder to feel other effects in operation on the same unit

Indeed, tactile is currently being used only for this plus off-idle and near-redline engine RPM.
I am still sorting measurements by piezo contact elements before deploying a Thruster for braking tactile feedback. All other non-visual feedback currently is by harness tensioning and AccuForce.

using from @3Hz - 70Hz

I have yet to dismantle my ShakeSeat to evaluate Dayton pucks, but measurements to date suggest
their Thruster is capable of neither responding below 10Hz nor sensed below 25Hz at best;
can no more imagine 3Hz tactile than a blind person can colors.
Practically, I was generally unable to control real cars with tire judder below 40Hz or so.

Would try to encourage you to get ACC

Thanks for the offer.
Based on what I have read, my HP Reverb would be unhappy with ACC's VR on my current PC.
Hardware upgrade prices should become less unreasonable when/if supply chains recover from lunar new year (May?). I dread feeling like a fish out of water, trying to cope with GT3 car demands...
It has been years since my reflexes could keep up with more than mildly modified street cars.

 

[blekenbleu]

I don´t understand this whole Watts/Ohm either

Watts = Amps*Amps*Ohms
Since rated at 6 Ohms, your receiver should, without overheating, be able to drive 4/6 of 100 = 66 Watts into an Aura. However, speaker and shaker impedances are never constant over frequency, typically dropping for lower frequencies, so probably less power at 20Hz than 1kHz.