Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Now the real quote should be:

"There must be an app for that....."

Seriously, is there no app for that ?

Spectroid on android
Spectrum Analyzer on iOS.

To name a couple.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

That capability goes a LOT farther back than 20 years....closer to 40. I had a stereo when I was in high school with a dual channel 10 band graphic equalizer....back in 1984. That EQ had a microphone input as well as both White noise and Pink noise generators.

Yes. I'm getting old.

I just found it on the Google, and Ebay. It was a BSR EQ-3000. Apparently, I can buy one for $110. I wonder what I paid back in 1984?

 

[blekenbleu]

Seriously, is there no app for that

For Windows: REW (Room Equalization Wizard), Equalizer APO and piezo contact microphone elements

BSR EQ-3000

I still have mine...

I hope that Simtag/ Mr. Latte will look into this

@Mr Latte is not a fan of measurements.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte is not a fan of measurements.

I wouldn't say that, I'm well aware of the benefits of Room EQ
Dealing with rooms and reflections is perhaps not the same, you can treat rooms or move furniture.

So far we have yet to be shown what extra control and benefits this approach brings and how it may help to develop better effects over multiple channels on a seat. I am puzzled how one tune can cover multiple variations in usage case scenarios of effects.

I am also puzzled by how you can better develop or apply tests of "effects" the user may want to do comparisons with. Give me an example of how you apply your readings in such a scenario to create/develop/monitor effects output?

The other question is, if indeed there is a need for it and if such is just so simple to accomplish?

At the moment gentlemen, I don't need a measurement tool to tell me how I like my effects or seat to feel and even how I want that to feel may vary on the mood or usage scenario I want at that time from the tactile.

 

[metalnwood]

@Mr Latte putting the effects to the side for a minute, do you not try and get things even across the frequencies?

I think you are saying that you do, but you do it by feel. When you sell all your effects and profiles, are you not going to be telling people that they need to get the different frequencies feeling like they are coming through evenly?

If you dont then your profiles may feel very different on some rigs?

All I have done was use an app and sensor to give me an indication that there is - for instance a peak around 55hz and its covering about 2 hz each side and amplitude about 20% more. That gives me three values to immediately put in to the amp, it gives me the freq to adjust, the db to adjust with and the Q to put in to cover a couple hz either side.

It takes 25 seconds to do the sweep and then look at the result and enter the values.

As I said, it could be automated, it would be a great addon that can be had cheap to automatically write out a config file for the amp.

Now I am sitting here wondering what you really dont like about it?

If your goal with the peq setting is to not try and even out the feeling across the frequencies then I misunderstand what you are doing and you dont see the value in what I am doing.

 

[blekenbleu]

decide between all the exciters

Another measurement set yet to be fully sorted is for linearity:

• shaker users will have noticed that multiple effects are better distributed among multiple transducers
  • that is not only because of frequency response limitations
  • moving substantial masses (iron slugs) rapidly and efficiency
    gets electromagnetic transducers out of their linear range.
• nonlinearities provoke harmonic and intermodulation distortions, among others
  • exciters, based more directly on loudspeaker tech, can be more linear
    • that statement is backed by my testing with only a single shaker, and not a good one
  • such distortions unavoidably "muddy" contributions from separate effects
    

 

[cnhoff]

@Mr Latte putting the effects to the side for a minute, do you not try and get things even across the frequencies?

I think you are saying that you do, but you do it by feel. When you sell all your effects and profiles, are you not going to be telling people that they need to get the different frequencies feeling like they are coming through evenly?

If you dont then your profiles may feel very different on some rigs?

All I have done was use an app and sensor to give me an indication that there is - for instance a peak around 55hz and its covering about 2 hz each side and amplitude about 20% more. That gives me three values to immediately put in to the amp, it gives me the freq to adjust, the db to adjust with and the Q to put in to cover a couple hz either side.

It takes 25 seconds to do the sweep and then look at the result and enter the values.

As I said, it could be automated, it would be a great addon that can be had cheap to automatically write out a config file for the amp.

Now I am sitting here wondering what you really dont like about it?

If your goal with the peq setting is to not try and even out the feeling across the frequencies then I misunderstand what you are doing and you dont see the value in what I am doing.

I think it would be terribly beneficial for a commercial product to behave the same on every platform.

One way of doing that is to calibrate the platform, e.g. by calibrating the frequency response. Consequently a given effect developed on a reference system would behave the same on any other calibrated system. This concept can be found in almost any industry.

Now coming to a stable and easy process to calibrate a shaker setup at the customer is a different story, but the benefits of that would be obvious. Obviously this would only work within certain boundaries, e.g. requiring the LFE/TST/Exc combination that is promoted, but not the exact mechanical setup and installation as the reference.

My understanding is, that Mrlatte is taking another approach, which is developing certain HW platforms that people can buy and for which he is confident will produce the effects as he has developed and tested them. Please correct me, if i am wrong.

On the other hand a band selling records is also taking no actions that the actual device it is played back on is following certain standards. But i guess we all would agree there would be tremendous differences between a cheap car stereo and a 20k Hifi, still people are enjoying the same music on both

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Buttometer is the best measurement instrument.
I think you guys are asking too much from single man DIY evolved operation.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[cnhoff]

Buttometer is the best measurement instrument.
I think you guys are asking too much from single man DIY evolved operation.

I am not asking anything of anyone, i am just making a comment.

Looking at how the whole discussion evolved so far, that might be a very important detail

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte putting the effects to the side for a minute, do you not try and get things even across the frequencies?

I think you are saying that you do, but you do it by feel. When you sell all your effects and profiles, are you not going to be telling people that they need to get the different frequencies feeling like they are coming through evenly?

If you dont then your profiles may feel very different on some rigs?

All I have done was use an app and sensor to give me an indication that there is - for instance a peak around 55hz and its covering about 2 hz each side and amplitude about 20% more. That gives me three values to immediately put in to the amp, it gives me the freq to adjust, the db to adjust with and the Q to put in to cover a couple hz either side.

It takes 25 seconds to do the sweep and then look at the result and enter the values.

As I said, it could be automated, it would be a great addon that can be had cheap to automatically write out a config file for the amp.

Now I am sitting here wondering what you really dont like about it?

If your goal with the peq setting is to not try and even out the feeling across the frequencies then I misunderstand what you are doing and you dont see the value in what I am doing.

Can we establish some things....

So from this sweep, you create a balance yes? To alter the output character that unit has to control and improve the performance it will achieve over the range of frequencies it.

A) Operates with based on its specification
B) Determined by crossover applied

Questions:
The 3rd party app you used for the sweep, is it from a device or using the same soundcard as Simhub? I understand you apply this to tune the DSP to reduce/correct peaks or increase the amplitude of other specific frequencies. Narrowing the Q factor to then correct the issues like reverb without affecting other frequencies.

What output level do you use for this, how is this output level in comparison to Simhubs, and what level in Simhubs global volume should be used that you would say is ideal? Can I also ask what volume on the amplifier should be used, is that relevant?

Did differences in the gain applied between soundcard/amp levels using the sweep have possible differences in the results/readings the sensor produced?

Can you show or confirm results using a sweep from sole individual units, then when multiple units are all outputting the sweep. What are the findings and when different gain levels are applied to individual units?

Im curious what you have tried and what findings you found.

 

[blekenbleu]

asking too much

Realistically, what fraction of surround receivers bundled e.g. with Audyssey or equivalent are properly setup?
Once a typical consumer gets something unboxed, located and plugged in, they are done.
Requiring diligence and understanding detailed instructions would kill sales.

 

[metalnwood]

Buttometer is the best measurement instrument.
I think you guys are asking too much from single man DIY evolved operation.

You have fallen in to Mr Latte's trap, he is convincing you that we are all expecting people do do what I am doing, I am not other than putting it out there

 

[metalnwood]

Can we establish some things....

So from this sweep, you create a balance yes? To alter the output character that unit has to control and improve the performance it will achieve over the range of frequencies it.

A) Operates with based on its specification
B) Determined by crossover applied

Questions:
The 3rd party app you used for the sweep, is it from a device or using the same soundcard as Simhub? I understand you apply this to tune the DSP to reduce/correct peaks or increase the amplitude of other specific frequencies. Narrowing the Q factor to then correct the issues like reverb without affecting other frequencies.

What output level do you use for this, how is this output level in comparison to Simhubs, and what level in Simhubs global volume should be used that you would say is ideal? Can I also ask what volume on the amplifier should be used, is that relevant?

Did differences in the gain applied between soundcard/amp levels using the sweep have possible differences in the results/readings the sensor produced?

Can you show or confirm results using a sweep from sole individual units, then when multiple units are all outputting the sweep. What are the findings and when different gain levels are applied to individual units?

Im curious what you have tried and what findings you found.

I had a really simple question, why dont you answer that before asking me ten?

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[metalnwood]

So far I still don't know what Mr. Latte will offer??

Will the customer be able to buy only his Simhub settings and DSP settings?

Or will be customer be obliged to buy also the hardware (BK LFE, TSST429, DA Exiters, Behringer Amps, Mini DSP, etc...)? This option would be of course better for Simtag (and Mr. Latte) so that they can generate more revenue and profit.

But then what are the Simhub settings and DSP settings worth for all the guys with some significant difference in terms of the hardware setup (transducers, amps). And if meanwhile many have a P1X, there are a lot of GT1, Trakracer, custom build rigs etc....

Humm, I am keen to see what will Mr. Latte and Simtag be offering....... (I know he will politically says, "it takes time"....LOL)

Their FB page said details will be released a week ago

What I have pieced together is that there will be some hardware and software settings. The software component looks to be hard to protect and charge for given it is based on simhub and one of mr latte's recent posts suggesting that charging for the profiles is not something that the developer of simhub wanted for his software.

Then there are the popular sims and cars that people drive, it's wide and varied and more than a single V8 GT3 with different characteristics. I have read from mr latte that this matters and diff cars/game should have diff settings to be ideal but it's a lot of work to do that for a commercial product so its likely that there will be compromises here.

Even with compromises I am guessing we will get profiles and ideas we have not seen and feel good. Hopefully simtag engineers have not come up against the Amish wall.

 

[Mr Latte]

If your goal with the peq setting is to not try and even out the feeling across the frequencies then I misunderstand what you are doing and you dont see the value in what I am doing.

Hold on, its is not about "my goal"
As has been discussed on these forums for several years, "the purpose" of applying the DSP is to achieve

A) More Performance
B) More Control
C) Improve Or Reduce Piston Pang / Reverb Issues
D) Configure to user preferences

When we take into account the understanding we have of what frequencies specific models operate best with. Also what peaks, these have in their operational character. Then we can apply a general Crossover Curve that lets the user achieve from the individual unit a response over the frequency range it will be used with to determine its output.

From this general curve, then the user can apply finer control with PEQ or DEQ on amps like the NXD series. Here things like reverb or finer tuning of peaks a unit generates the user can set based on their own personal preferences.

In some cases, the DEQ may actually be better but in fairness, you find it hard to get a group of owners that are willing to dig deep into settings to achieve perhaps additional minor benefits. Another example is ratio or compression, where can you show me a guide on configuring these or if they are usable with transducers?

What I can tell you is, this is not that difficult to determine if you need to raise or lower certain settings based on the feel/noise the unit may generate in the seat. Users only need to grasp the basics of lowering/increasing the amplitude of frequencies and feel exactly what it does. They do not necessarily need to see a reading telling them what it is to achieve a setting they are happy with...

How have people been able to get by with configuring or tuning tactile installations for the last 10+ years without having a sensor or readings from that sensor? It is possible to create more than one DSP profile, then for a person to load and make it very simple. We just get several owners of similar cockpits/transducers to confirm DSP settings they found operated really well for them.

So for me, I guess you need to illustrate what the benefits of such is and that indeed it not only works accurately but lets a user achieve higher performance. I am not against it, I question the true need for it lads, and still, wait for you guys to show the benefits of it being applied and compared to DSP settings we know work rather well anyways.