Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Well, now... THAT explains some things!! I was restarting some testing in a clean Car folder only putting in specific waveforms. So, I would only have, say, bumps in the folder and accidentally ticked engine beat and then feeling the effect. Wha?!! Okay. Mystery solved. Thanks, Rod!

Quick update:
I received my 1000DSP to drive my ADXs and everything is working good. I now really want to split my heel deck for distinct L/R feedback. May take care of that this weekend. Once I do that and get some more testing in, I'll provide some pics of my heel deck setup and impressions of what I'm experiencing. Already in a pretty good place and enjoying the tactile feedback! I can see myself sticking with my current setup for a bit with a possible upgrade to the TST209. Maybe bump it up to a 239? @Mr Latte - do you think that is a worthwhile upgrade? A 329 is more than double the price of a 239 so just not willing to go there but a 239 is not expensive.

Excellent news...

The TST 239 is worth upgrading to and decent for what we need for mid-higher bass detailing, the 329 is better yes but I wouldn't say worth twice the money. I haven't had much input or many comparisons between the ADX and the TST 239 but do believe the TST239 is the superior unit for detailing and for engines.

It would be good to get your views in comparing one to your ADX.

 

[Hiro Abe]

Heh... I was afraid you were going to say that! Okay, think I'll first get my heel deck sorted and get some more testing done. Then I'll get a 239. After that, I'm going to take a breather from all this purchasing/reconfiguring and get back to more driving/racing!

 

[fubarbrickdust]

@Mr Latte

I would like to express an interest in trying out these SSW files you've been working on if you would be happy to share?

I'm in the process of a complete upgrade and overhaul of my rig and have gone for a full 6 channel (5.1) tactile system as well as NLV3 motion platform - I'm more than happy to get involved with giving feedback and thoughts on your work.

For your information, my new rig/tactile setup is as follows:

Rig:

• Simlabs GT1
• NLRV3 MP
• CSW2.5
• CSPV3i
• CSS1.5
• Gametrix Jetseat + SSW

Tactile:

• 2x SMSL 98SE (powering the Reckhorns below)
• 4x Reckhorn BS200i (in quad configuration)
• 1x Lepy 2024A 20W Amp
• 4x Dayton Audio TT25 Mini Pucks (in the central channel, 2x on pedal board & 2 yet to be determined)

EDIT: I also have an issue with SSW crashing when selecting 6 channel mode. If anyone has experienced similar I'd be keen to hear if you've managed to fix it.

EDIT 2: And I can't seem to work out how to tag users. I'm sure it's simple, but I'm feeling a bit daft that I can't seem to sus it out!?!

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte

I would like to express an interest in trying out these SSW files you've been working on if you would be happy to share?

I'm in the process of a complete upgrade and overhaul of my rig and have gone for a full 6 channel (5.1) tactile system as well as NLV3 motion platform - I'm more than happy to get involved with giving feedback and thoughts on your work.

For your information, my new rig/tactile setup is as follows:

Rig:

• Simlabs GT1
• NLRV3 MP
• CSW2.5
• CSPV3i
• CSS1.5
• Gametrix Jetseat + SSW

Tactile:

• 2x SMSL 98SE (powering the Reckhorns below)
• 4x Reckhorn BS200i (in quad configuration)
• 1x Lepy 2024A 20W Amp
• 4x Dayton Audio TT25 Mini Pucks (in the central channel, 2x on pedal board & 2 yet to be determined)

EDIT: I also have an issue with SSW crashing when selecting 6 channel mode. If anyone has experienced similar I'd be keen to hear if you've managed to fix it.

EDIT 2: And I can't seem to work out how to tag users. I'm sure it's simple, but I'm feeling a bit daft that I can't seem to sus it out!?!

Okay man, will try to send you some files feedback for the units you have is sought after.
The problem is that as I develop the files on my own hardware and in 6 channel. It is likely you will need the frequency variations and different dB sets to get files that work better on the hardware you have. These are currently being made as over 400 files are needed to cover all effects and options.

Additional hours at work and the rather rare but good weather (Northern Ireland) have not helped get things done this week.

Its been a rocky path but small steps towards the horizon will make it worth it!



One factor I have been concerned about however is having some effects that use very low frequencies if the 20% shift is enough for smaller units like the Dayton Pucs. The Reckhorn should be okay but If you fancy doing some testing with specific files it would be appreciated.

I don't at the moment have time to copy/convert files I have into various configurations, save these and then forward to people. Some others have been requesting effects to via PM, so please be patient guys....

Crashing in 6 channel mode is likely because you have files in a folder being used for one or more effects that are not saved as a 6 channel configuration. Try each effect with one on at a time to see if you get the crash. If only 1 file is wrong then you will know which it is but if it is several then you need to paste proper 6 channel files in the folders.


The folders 1/2/6 are for the different configurations of channels, then each of these have the "Car" folders. You need to ensure your 6 channel files are saved in Audacity as using 6 channels, even if only some channels are active with the effect they need to be exported/saved in this configuration. If you open a 6 channel file in Audacity to a 2 or 1 channel you will see the differences.

 

[fubarbrickdust]

Okay man, will try to send you some files feedback for the units you have is sought after.

Thanks dude, much appreciated.

The problem is that as I develop the files on my own hardware and in 6 channel. It is likely you will need the frequency variations and different dB sets to get files that work better on the hardware you have. These are currently being made as over 400 files are needed to cover all effects and options.

One factor I have been concerned about however is having some effects that use very low frequencies if the 20% shift is enough for smaller units like the Dayton Pucs. The Reckhorn should be okay but If you fancy doing some testing with specific files it would be appreciated.

Yes, I have certainly considered that there will be a disparity between the performance and output of the two differing sets of transducers/amps - I have a little time with tweaking the stock SSW files to work well with the DA pucks, as you probably well know, different units respond better at differing freqs, general rule of thumb I've discovered is smaller units deal better with (relatively) higher frequencies, and also respond differently depending on mounting method.

I don't at the moment have time to copy/convert files I have into various configurations, save these and then forward to people. Some others have been requesting effects to via PM, so please be patient guys....

I also have some history/experience working with audio and related DAW's etc. I'm more than able to work with any current file sets that you're happy with and have at hand...I don't expect, nor would I ask for you to create a bespoke file set for my particular setup. I'm rather curious regarding the creative work you've come up with regarding texture and variance for the different effects...making them fit and work with my system will be part of the fun challenge from my perspective.

Part of my feedback will certainly pertain to how your files work with my units, and what i’ll have needed to change in order to get the best performance.

Crashing in 6 channel mode is likely because you have files in a folder being used for one or more effects that are not saved as a 6 channel configuration. Try each effect with one on at a time to see if you get the crash. If only 1 file is wrong then you will know which it is but if it is several then you need to paste proper 6 channel files in the folders.

Thanks for the insight, I'll have a look into this when I get home and have access to my machine. Nice one.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks dude, much appreciated.



Yes, I have certainly considered that there will be a disparity between the performance and output of the two differing sets of transducers/amps - I have a little time with tweaking the stock SSW files to work well with the DA pucks, as you probably well know, different units respond better at differing freqs, general rule of thumb I've discovered is smaller units deal better with (relatively) higher frequencies, and also respond differently depending on mounting method.


I also have some history/experience working with audio and related DAW's etc. I'm more than able to work with any current file sets that you're happy with and have at hand...I don't expect, nor would I ask for you to create a bespoke file set for my particular setup. I'm rather curious regarding the creative work you've come up with regarding texture and variance for the different effects...making them fit and work with my system will be part of the fun challenge from my perspective.

Part of my feedback will certainly pertain to how your files work with my units, and what i’ll have needed to change in order to get the best performance.


Thanks for the insight, I'll have a look into this when I get home and have access to my machine. Nice one.

Righteo, excellent....

I believe giving people decent quality waveforms that are certainly more advanced than the default sets will help improve the sensations they feel. From a technical standpoint, shifting the frequencies that the wav contains helps the user find frequencies that the units they have may feel stronger with or more to the users preference for the sensation they deliver. Of course, development for individual effects can continue but its time to get out what I already have.

For me its important these are to a good standard, this was a key goal but the method for shifting the Hz is similar to how Simvibe uses its engine V4-V12 modes with engine harmonics. Although, its got nothing to do with actual engines but shifting the fundamental frequency higher/lower for the rpm to then match different cars idle and varied rpm ranges.

A while back, rather than trying to create individual effects for different models of hardware (very time consuming). It hit me, that we can do this same idea in principle but with a full waveform rather than just a fundamental tone. So its a rather simple method of increasing or decreasing the duration of the wav to then determine the increase in % of Hz that we modify the frequencies contained within it.

One issue, depending on the wav is that if we go too high with increased % then you can get annoying audible tones on units like the TST with some effects. I limited it to 20% and with 5% steps but for some effects based on user feedback we can increase this if required.

We have noticed a rather big difference in the amplitude needed depending on amps and tactile used. A new engine effect I was trying I can have at 70% + SSW slider volume with the LFE yet on my TST and other people coming back saying they couldnt go beyond 20% as it was far far too strong. This is where having the dB variants of every single effect will come in handy.

So while not everyone will find much use for some of the dB ranges its to accomodate various users hardware and components used. I dont know of a better way to approach this than the way I am attempting. Its also important people can use the effect files without confusion or any of the uncertainty that Simvibe has, with its sliders or controls as to what they actually are outputting to the tactile.That is for me the sole reason I self taught myself, went out and bought a multichannel interface and DAW to better understand it all and see in realtime what any tactile or audio related software was doing.

If I was just interested in doing this just for my own custom tactile rig I wouldnt of reached out to others. The more people that can help give feedback and in particular with the more affordable tactile the better.

Hit me a PM I would like to get more user comments regards the operation of the frequency shifts and dB ranges with some of the effects.

 

[Mr Latte]

For my own specialised build. I am hoping this device will come in handy to bring advanced learning. In seeking to determine how the installed tactile may vary in operation with different materials used. Also how their installation positions or methods are working and how channel crosstalk is transitioning from one section of the build to the other.

This is something I have always sought to learn more on or being able to mount/install tactile to compare different solutions how the vibration energy varies. Such should help me expand more understanding or in future build a test-bench section to consider doing 1-1 comparisons with different tactile units with tests with various frequencies, effects creation or sources.

I'm not an engineer so much of this will be learning on the fly or finding resources to help.
Ive not, however, come across someone really go this deep into monitoring or comparing tactile units or seeking to use such to enhance a build. So its a bit of a lonely or odd path to take, yet for me fascinating/interesting from a geek perspective yet uncertain how it will transpire.

However, I have waffled on about for years how the rig I want to build is to be built solely around maximising the tactile experience. So this is what we call "talking the talk but walking the walk" so to speak. I will continue to endeavor to push the potential of what tactile immersion can bring to a sim rig and beyond even what professional based sim rigs use or offer.

Now, while this is not a cheap accessory (I got a good deal on ebay) it is a professional industry quality tool, if still rather basic. Many such devices in this industrial sector go into the thousands.

It will, (well it better), provide much more accurate and detailed info on the vibrations compared to phone/tablet x,y,z motion detection software tools. The coming weeks as I begin making sections for the new build and testing my own isolation ideas will tell.

 

[Hiro Abe]

I imagine it is the level of sensitivity that makes such an instrument expensive?

 

[Mr Latte]

I imagine it is the level of sensitivity that makes such an instrument expensive?

Possibly as I have little idea, (noob) but yes the frequency range and sensitivity do seem to be accurate factors involved. I looked into these 3-4 years ago but never got one and wasnt convinced the sub £200 ones from China would be upto much.

So its part of the journey, just like at one time I had little idea about frequencies, harmonics, octaves, amplitude and a pile of other audio/tactile based things etc. Messing around with stuff can be entertaining in its own way and just self learning or then finding new resources to apply such in our own approaches.

These units basically use a magnet to attach to the surface, then show the readings based on how or what you want it to display. Several videos can be found. So really I just need it to operate efficiently and accurately then do comparisons with the readings being taken. It may be interesting to see how the energy drops or is maintained with different materials or products used.

It may bring a bit more data/science to the "feel it in yer arse or feet" approach. Just as how using the audio interface and professional DAW or audio tools helps with seeing what the audio/effects are doing. This now should help enlighten what the tactile vibrations and installation itself is doing.

I am getting pretty awesome tactile with the effects and the level of hardware I have. So putting this into practice to ensure the new build delivers or transmits the tactile as best possible based on the design or methods in the build that need applied will just help to further enhance the potential quality of the immersion. That combined with how my build will show multiple body regions being used, lets say more than the average build will help bring all the elements I have researched or tested on together.

This still will take time, I have limited funds this is an expensive build to take on. So its much greater cost than a typical 8020 design or installation will be.

 

[Haxxenone]

Hello Guys,

My first attempt on a simrig (gamingchair, wheelstand pro, g29wheel, modded g29 pedals, shh-shifer, fanatec handbrake, bbjsimracing button box) is now pretty decent with the latest addition of a Buttkicker gamer 2 set. The next upgrade will be anothere level of expensivness, so i think this rig is completed for now. At some time i wanna have a real rig, and not this compromise. ^^

I have the Buttkicker Gamer attached to my gaming chair with the clamp, pretty basic, but i just wanted to see how good the tactile feedback is. I like it a lot, but heres my question: What is a good effect setup for just one buttkicker in extension mode - seat in simvibe?

Is the default setting with engine/rpm, gearshift, curbs and crashes already too much? what would you advise? and how to i find out the perfect setting for each effect? just how i think it feels nice? how do i detect if outputs get clipped?

I searched a bit in the forum but many threads are about a multitransducer setup. Googling didnt help much either. If my answers are all answered already i would love to get some links.

Thanks in advance and greetings from Germany,
Haxxen

 

[Daniel oliver]

Hello Guys,

My first attempt on a simrig (gamingchair, wheelstand pro, g29wheel, modded g29 pedals, shh-shifer, fanatec handbrake, bbjsimracing button box) is now pretty decent with the latest addition of a Buttkicker gamer 2 set. The next upgrade will be anothere level of expensivness, so i think this rig is completed for now. At some time i wanna have a real rig, and not this compromise. ^^

I have the Buttkicker Gamer attached to my gaming chair with the clamp, pretty basic, but i just wanted to see how good the tactile feedback is. I like it a lot, but heres my question: What is a good effect setup for just one buttkicker in extension mode - seat in simvibe?

Is the default setting with engine/rpm, gearshift, curbs and crashes already too much? what would you advise? and how to i find out the perfect setting for each effect? just how i think it feels nice? how do i detect if outputs get clipped?

I searched a bit in the forum but many threads are about a multitransducer setup. Googling didnt help much either. If my answers are all answered already i would love to get some links.

Thanks in advance and greetings from Germany,
Haxxen

Sell the buttkicker and buy a jetseat 908 it's so much better.

 

[Haxxenone]

Thx for the exceptional help Daniel.

 

[anton_Chez]

Maybe start with engine vibes and gear shift and see how you go. With a single unit you may overload it too much with too many effects, so an engine vibe and gear change effect will give you some nice tactile effect for a constant amount of time. It will add depth and liveliness to your driving. Then once you have experienced that, take them off and run with just some road bumps, see how it feels compared to engine. Run whichever you feel is more worthwhile. Engine will give a nice feeling all round but bumps may help with driving, as it helps to spot troublesome areas on the tarmac you may otherwise have missed.

 

[Haxxenone]

Thanks for the input. I think whats definetly out is crashes, i dont want to crash anyway. I think i will go for engine + gearshift effect + bumps, but the last one only subtle, so i can feel it, but so that its definetly away from clipping.

If it turns out to be to much, than i will stick to engine+shifts and wait for my next simrig to upgrade to a multiple transducer setup ^^

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for the input. I think whats definetly out is crashes, i dont want to crash anyway. I think i will go for engine + gearshift effect + bumps, but the last one only subtle, so i can feel it, but so that its definetly away from clipping.

If it turns out to be to much, than i will stick to engine+shifts and wait for my next simrig to upgrade to a multiple transducer setup ^^

Keep in mind that many people with multiple transducer setup fall into the same trap as a person with one. They can overload a unit with too many effects, just then they are doing it with 4 or 6.

This term "overloading" needs perhaps to be clarified more.
Tactile units can handle lots of effects, as they work with normal audio like music that have much more frequencies and harmonics in use contained in the music than what we do with sim racing and limited tones.

A key factor, if using telemetry based solutions is to create effects or determine with settings ways to give some effects their own sensations or work towards using different frequencies. They need their own character to help feel different when operating with others.

People have a habit in using the same or similar range of frequencies a lot (often those that feel strongest on their units) but then they wonder why the effects all feel like one big mush of vibration lacking detail and not bringing individual sensations.

A constant engine can dampen the felt sensation detailing of other effects, it can improve the immersion if we place engine onto its own unit or units if wanting engine in seat and pedals. If we have both then we can also place engine strength more to the front/mid/back to suit specific cars too.

Depends how far you want to take things but trial and error on your own part will help you find what you prefer.

 

[Hiro Abe]

I've completed splitting my heel deck and the below pics should illustrate my setup and why doing this was not a difficult process in my case.

Because I have my pedals mounted inverted, my heel deck has simply been a piece of 3/4" ply. This was supported by four brackets at the corner with a thick sorbothane washer between bracket and ply to help isolate the vibrations. I replaced those brackets with two extrusions spanning the width of my rig so I can mount the split deck separately.

In this pic, you can see the right side deck mounted.

Below is me holding the ADX mounted to the left deck. As you can see I have the transducer mounted directly under my heel. This is why I went with a budget unit like the ADX. There was no need to go with the bigger Buttkicker units.

Below shows the aforementioned sorbothane washer. The additional rubber washer is simply for spacing. The bolts I had were slightly too long and bottomed out in the supporting extrusion. Um... yes, the rubber washer is oversized. I decided not to cut them down just in case things change and I use them for something else. Not the prettiest but not very noticeable once everything is mounted. I also put rubber washers under the bolt heads to help quell vibrations between bolt and deck.

Going to hold off on providing feedback. Still early days in regards to testing the l/r feedback and if this has really improved or not the stereo effect.

 

[Spinelli]

I just got a Next Level Racing Motion v3 and a single Buttkicker Mini. Do you guys think it will be pointless to add a Gametrix Jetseat? I don't want to add it on just for the sake of it. Does it add any value if I already have a motion device and1x transducer?

 

[anton_Chez]

I'd like to try a Jetseat for the feeling of sustained force on the body, which the V3 cannot really provide being a motion based platform. I guess it depends on the amount of force it can help provide whether it would be worth it or not. Motion platform for movement bases cues, buttkicker for engine and road bumps, and Jetseat for lateral G-force simulation mid corner would probably be the best experience in combining hardware you could hope to achieve at a home user level. Some would say the GS4/5 seat would be better but that would mean using Simcommander and also having a heavier seat mounted to your V3. Not to mention the price difference and the fact you cannot find them anywhere unless a rare one pops up for sale used.

 

[Spinelli]

Ya, I hear the gameseat uses small, low-powered vibration motors; you get a vibration effect so I don't know how much that'll give a g-force feeling. I imagine it can be tuned/used more for grip & grip-loss feeling.

 

[Mr Latte]

Ya, I hear the gameseat uses small, low-powered vibration motors; you get a vibration effect so I don't know how much that'll give a g-force feeling. I imagine it can be tuned/used more for grip & grip-loss feeling.

Compared with tactile, the question with the vibration motors is what frequency range do they offer or generally operate in? Also, how does a user create their own effects for them? I've not see much on this. Although it would help determine how good they are to tactile units, even the cheapest units available.

Its possible to consider building a d.i.y padded seat type cover or a solution to stick/secure multiple Dayton Puc or even using some of the Dayton Exciter type units that are sold. Although who would ever think of trying something like that out on a seat to help bring finer high frequency detailing.

Mmmmmmmmmm

Really though, it would be good to ask owners that have Jetseat to use the audio cable. Then do frequency tests via a tone generator online to determine how they may compare to these other cheap solutions.

We can have very deep/strong waveforms created for g-force for tactile that sustain really low Hz for the duration of the time the effect is active. A good test I experimented a bit with, was trying effects in Assetto Corsa at Daytona Road Course. You can feel the G all the way through the corner but when coming off the bank onto the straight it stops. Its a pretty cool sensation but the question is, how well it is executed with a small buzz sensation compared to a rig using some of the best/most powerful tactile pumping out a lot of vibration at 100s of watts.

The G-Force effect can be nice and firm sensation but I found it is complemented well with a lighter coarse/tingle type sensation used for Wheelslip effect. I cant say how effects with Jetseat feel different as not tried but clearly Andres default .wav for SSW are all very similar and not doing the best to bring individual sensations between different effects.

So I don't imagine the default effects for Jetseat will vary much either? Although I've not seen anyone talking about making custom effects for Jetseat which is possible isnt it?

Indeed their may be some benefits even combining a Jetseat with a full tactile setup to help enhance some of the mid/high frequencies the various effects may produce. I have yet, however, read much on peoples own experiences with both.