PC1 Banned for no reason!

[David Ignjatovic]

I've been unbanned from Vlr

 

[Chronus]

I've been unbanned from Vlr

What exactly made them issue a ban for you?

-Hard to prove, or quantify.

IMHO the human wrong-o-meter works quite good, but it's never easy to exactly see what is wrong. Since no sim car is 100% perfect, it makes it even more difficult.

- Yes... it's the only way to compare to. Either that or real cars and to some extent videos (corner speeds for example) or data (motec and so on, if available)

We discussed this before at NG, I believe.

It is not and should not be hard to quantify or prove which sim is better in terms of physics. It is not and never will be a matter of subjective reasoning.

Lets put aside suspension design or data, engine data or even physical constraints (inertias, dimensions) - if a sim is open to modding, then a simple editing of physics files will correct these.

Say a car (from sim YYY) is travelling at a certain speed through a corner. Simple physics will tell you how how high is its lateral force. From that you can easily calculate the friction force(s) needed to keep the car in its trajectory. Finally, you can calculate how high the vertical load on the car must be. With that info you will know how high is its downforce.

Say that the car from sim YYY achieves the proper results. Peaks aside, you try your best and the car will not corner above a certain speed.

Now pick the same car but modelled in sim ZZZ. You go through a similar corner (maybe the same, if the track is also modelled there) and you find you can get away with cornering speeds 40 or 50 kph above what simple physics would tell you is possible. You edit everything which is open to modding, and still the sim will allow you to perform at miraculous cornering speeds.

[Note: some might say even if both sims model the same track, its physical representation might differ. However, in this day and age, Vince Klortho's team have modded successfully several tracks, with painstaking detail; if a modding team can do that, racing sims devs can and should represent tracks as accurately as possible (by use of laser-scanning, GPS data, a mix of the two, or by use of other techniques). I suspect the differences (physical diffs, that is) between tracks modelled nowadays by iRacing and other simulation dev companies are rather minute, which, imo, translates to being possible to compare similar cars in the same track.]

Now, we know there are many things involved: tires, aerodynamics, roll-centers (and chassis distortion), but in the end, physical constraints (limits) do exist and they should apply to any car - from a "reasonably priced car" to a Daytona Prototype. Whichever racing sim obeys to these constraints/rules, is the best. Period.

You might say, "yes, but maybe sim YYY gets it right in terms of tires, chassis physics and aerodynamics but fails in suspensions, whereas sim ZZZ has really good suspension modelling". That might happen (though from XMR to ISI-based racing-sims and iRacing, suspensions have been surprisingly well modelled, even if this or that physics engine cannot model ALL suspension designs), but in the end, the racing simulation that obeys the most to physical rules will always outbest others.

No subjectivity involved, simple math/physics should suffice to prove whether a racing sim gets it RIGHT.

With or without full theoretical physics modelling, with or without empirical modelling behind its physics engine.

Now, if we move to the other side of the fence, "realism" by photo-realistic depiction of racing...Lots of subjectivity there and probably no one will ever agree which sim is best.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

What exactly made them issue a ban for you?

Describing pcars as arcade.

It's a hostile environment over there, the mod and Montoya are having to battle a number of people who're questioning their ethics.....of course, they forget that many more people read than post, so they need to be mindful of the favoritism shown to pcars as it doesn't really belong on their sim focused website.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Thing that gets to me is why Tim W. (formerly iRacing and now working for ISI) accepts all sorts of criticism
.

If the criticism is reasonable and consistent, Tim would only have himself to blame if he ignored it, and he'd have himself to congratulate if he reacted accordingly.

IMO, the censorship surrounding pcars isn't about bad press, but BS, ie, SMS are most likely focused on console sales{hence 30FPS=pretty GFX but questionable levels of input lag}, as such, the alpha testers at WMD are simply removing bugs from a wide range of PC systems, and will gain the advantage of framerates and GFX, but will get physics only as advanced as SMS deem the console gamers can handle.

I find it quite obscene that they're probably going to produce yet another arcade/simcade game considering their claims and unique method of obtaining funding, but they certainly have the right to do so.......that said, if Kunos, Simbin or Reiza hit the jackpot with one of their sims, one would assume genuine sim racing should flourish over the next few years.

 

[Chronus]

If the criticism is reasonable and consistent, Tim would only have himself to blame if he ignored it, and he'd have himself to congratulate if he reacted accordingly.

At iRacing, I never read anything negative by Tim Wheatley.

With ISI, I have seen comments and they're professional (obviously, haven't read every single thing he publishes, but what I have read thus far follows that trend).

I have seen similar behaviour from SIMBIN representatives in the past, even by the AI and physics man himself when under attack by shoot-SIMBIN-at-any-cost types.

That is all there is to it with them.

Which is very positive.

IMO, the censorship surrounding pcars isn't about bad press, but BS, ie, SMS are most likely focused on console sales{hence 30FPS=pretty GFX but questionable levels of input lag}, as such, the alpha testers at WMD are simply removing bugs from a wide range of PC systems, and will gain the advantage of framerates and GFX, but will get physics only as advanced as SMS deem the console gamers can handle.

No.

Look deeper than that. All this "physics is subjective", "we're after consoles-money" is just a smoke screen, the proverbial "flag over the screen" to cover up the frailties of a dev's work.

I read somewhere something you said about isiMotor2 having been stretched to the limit, maxed out. Wrong. I am not even going to discuss my own (albeit insignificant) work with isiMotor2, suffice to say that Niels's constant experimentation with rFactor2 and finally Reiza's usage of isiMotor2 are proof to the contrary. No, isiMotor2 hasn't maxed out, there are quite a few things left to show and quite a lot of things we can do to actually show how good it is. Not everyone is willing to go down that route, though, and devs surely believe it's best to look somewhere else in order to justify asking 50 to 60 Euros per copy of their shiny new sim (not ISI's case, though). This may be legitimate, true, I for one find it sad (to say the very least) that in order to promote some new sim, some people have to start the shoot-isiMotor2-down season.

In regards to bans here and there...I wonder what would happen at some places if anyone asks devs directly their opinion on the above.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Well, I'm banned again from Vlr, lol.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Look deeper than that. All this "physics is subjective", "we're after consoles-money" is just a smoke screen, the proverbial "flag over the screen" to cover up the frailties of a dev's work.
.

My attitude towards sims atm is fairly simple, ie, given how good the best sim cars already are, I'd much rather things like better GFX, realistic weather, and a HUGE boost in both sound quality and use of sound, but I don't want to go backwards on physics, but could live happily for a few more yrs with cars based around the physics of Simbin C6R, Reiza 88 F1, FVA or the best cars in netkar.

That being the case, if for example Assetto Corsa feels identical to FVA, but has better GFX, SP and active MP modes, then I'll be happy....but this doesn't mean we shouldn't expect better physics down the line.....

To me, SMS's problem isn't inability to program, it's a decision that consoles are the main focus and that the PC driving model and FFB reflect what a xb360 can calculate.

 

[Chronus]

What did you do this time to get the ban? Sneeze "ISI"?

I read you, m8. But I disagree with the direction some believe is the right direction for going forwards. For me, quite simple, results say it all and I can get exactly the results I want from isiMotor2. Sure, there is always room for improvement (after the Spitfire, we we're "given" the Eurofighter Typhoon, after all). But how much of an improvement, in what areas, and at what cost...hmmm.

We agree on something: FVA's physics is first rate, if AC is anywhere near that, we should be so happy, imo.

In regards to SMS...Never said SMS isn't able to develop well. Never said they don't have the right people doing the coding/engineering; they have (credit to Ian Bell be given). That's the crux: they have the right people doing this job, and yet some decisions may just jeopardize the whole work - be they marketing related, time related or simply the target (consoles vs PCs). Whatever the reason, and as a consequence, we may get a product which falls spectacularly short of what we were promised (some will say we didn't read the small letters when signing up).

Finally, one thing: Stephano Casillo already hinted at this when he commented how simple (short) the FFB code in NKP is, so...

FFB and physics aren't one and the same (unless the physics engine has force-feedback code deeply integrated in it, which would be odd). FFB does not contribute to a better or worse physics engine. It may lead to unsatisfied customers if it is badly implemented, but in itself that may not have anything to do with the physics engine.

EDIT:

about bans, and this being a "I was banned..." thread...silly, isn't it?

 

[David Ignjatovic]

FFB and physics aren't one and the same

Yes but the FFB reflects what the cars doing, and between the quality and quantity of FFB reacting to car behaviour, you have a standard to judge.
Of course FVA doesn't stop being a sim if you use a gamepad to drive it, but you're denied what I and many other deem to be a fundamental aspect of this whole thing.

I was banned for no good reason, no different to last time

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Well, I'm banned again from Vlr, lol.

Why?

 

[Chronus]

Hmmm...what then is a racing sim good for if not for actually simulating the racing experience (from physics to gfx and sounds and ambiance)? I respect those who use gamepads with racingsims we enjoy, but it certainly is not something for me. Without wheels&pedals, for me, regardless of sim or platform, the "experience" is no longer that of simulated racing but rather that of a common game.

FFB: hmmm, maybe you're right. I for one, go the other way around: I turn off FFB in every single sim at first, experience it, abuse the cars, get a "feel" for what they're doing, how they're reacting. Then, finally, I turn FFB on. Often, FFB falls spectacularly short of what the rest of the experience is telling me.

Maybe I will change how I approach the new sims if and when I get a $50000 racing simulator package (say SimCraft's Apex3 GT), but for now...

Bans. This being a thread about bans

Boy, this reminds me of those silly quiz shows, where contestants have to hit (smash?) a red button to answer the question. So, if these "very nice, cautious people" see a post by some of us, they'll be scrambling to hit the "report post" faster than Speedy González.

 

[martinsalat]

Why?

because he called pcars arcade again and again and again ........
but it is absolute clear that pcars is not arcade. http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j...9pNep2IbtOLBdDXYg&sig2=MZtAo5WgmWhb_KzTb9_Gpw

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Well it´s simcade at best.

 

[martinsalat]

simcade is an fantasy name.you can call it semi-sim,but for me its a sim.

 

[Andy_J]

simcade is an fantasy name.you can call it semi-sim,but for me its a sim.

Come on. It's no where near Sim. You lot are kidding yourselves. And why? It seems like you are brain washed by SMS promises or something?

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Why?

I kept trying to question pcars sim status...

 

[Hampus Andersson]

simcade is an fantasy name.you can call it semi-sim,but for me its a sim.

Do you consider Gran Turismo 5 or Forza 3 a sim?

Sims are not a subjective thing either. You can tell yourself that but it´s not true.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

simcade is an fantasy name.you can call it semi-sim,but for me its a sim.

On what basis is it a sim for you??
For me it has tragic FFB, and a terrible rolly polly driving model, and if you take even one of the best cars to Donnington{audi DTM}, you'd have to be half stupid to call this thing a sim.
Donningtons change of direction put pcars under pressure, and it failed on FFB and driving model.
Pcars is arcade....Shift1 has a better overall driving model.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Just to clear this up for everyone who obviously don´t know what sim means.

It means Simulation. Now what does Simulation mean?

[noun] (computer science) the technique of representing the real world by a computer program;

"a simulation should imitate the internal processes and not merely the results of the thing being simulated"


You see this is where PCARS falls flat in terms of being a sim.

 

[martinsalat]

Do you consider Gran Turismo 5 or Forza 3 a sim? semi-sim but for sure not arcade.

Sims are not a subjective thing either. You can tell yourself that but it´s not true.

semi-sim but for sure not arcade.