2018 Italian Grand Prix: Vettel vs Hamilton - Who Was at Fault?

[Richard Dastardly]

Vettel seems to be responsible, but to me, that's a racing incident, period. Anyway, even if Vettel had been found "guilty" by the stewards, a penalty would have been too harsh: Hamilton did not lose anything and Vettel was heavily penalised when he dropped to last place. (He got lucky there was a safety car right after the incident.).

I should have said that too. Vettel made a rash mistake when he should have recognised at that point that there was an entire race ahead & his car wasn't settled, but IMO penalties are either for deliberate punts or reckless idiocy which wrecks more than one person's day. I'd not call Vettel a reckless idiot at that point, just a bit too wound up. He didn't smack Lewis hard enough to even spin him, let alone damage his car.

 

[Slowdive]

Bottas had both his tyres over the white line, and still was hit by Verstappen, who seems unable to brake in a straight line whenever he is defending (AKA blocking) from an overtake.
Yet in your opinion "Max left Bottas just enough room to maybe kinda avoid contact".
Since I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt, would you care to explain your opinion?

Observe how far up Hamilton has Vettel pinched there (there is maybe half a car width between Hamilton and the white line). It is no different than your picture except perhaps that Verstappen gave Bottas more room than Hamilton gave Vettel. Both Vettel and Bottas could've gone just a bit more off track to avoid the aggressive drivers. My point is these incidents are almost identical. In both cases one driver did not give enough room to the other driver. And anyone can guess who got away with it and who got penalized.

Personally I'm fine with neither incident being called. My only point is that F1 is consistently inconsistent in favor of certain drivers.

 

[Diogo Goetz Brand]

Observe how far up Hamilton has Vettel pinched there (there is maybe half a car width between Hamilton and the white line). It is no different than your picture except perhaps that Verstappen gave Bottas more room than Hamilton gave Vettel. Both Vettel and Bottas could've gone just a bit more off track to avoid the aggressive drivers. My point is these incidents are almost identical. In both cases one driver did not give enough room to the other driver. And anyone can guess who got away with it and who got penalized.

Personally I'm fine with neither incident being called. My only point is that F1 is consistently inconsistent in favor of certain drivers.

First of all, do you know what happens when a driver brakes with two wheels on the grass? Exactly! they spin and usually have a bad accident.
Also, your picture is horrible and doesn't show how close anyone was to anything.

Looking from an angle that actually shows something, it's visible that Vettel had enough space to make the corner, it's just his trajectory that caused him to hit Hamilton, his car was nowhere near rotated enough to make the corner with no contact.

I'm not sure who you're saying F1 usually favours with their inconsistency, because It's actually a miracle that Verstappen actually got a penalty. The guy behaves like an asshole every single time he is under attack from another driver, yet 99% of the times he just gets away with his ****, and still has the guts to say "hurr durr they're spoiling racing" when he actually gets what he deserves.

 

[Slowdive]

an incident means that they've made a clear misjudgement that leads to contact.

Correct. Verstappen made a clear misjudgement and left Bottas just a fraction too little room there. Likewise Hamilton left Vettel just a fraction too little room. These are identical situations that represent an error in judgement.

I'll also add that the burden of responsibility is greater on the passing driver to execute a safe pass. If there is a collision and the defending driver isn't doing anything egregious, by default the fault rests more heavily with the passer.

 

[Slowdive]

First of all, do you know what happens when a driver brakes with two wheels on the grass? Exactly! they spin and usually have a bad accident.
Also, your picture is horrible and doesn't show how close anyone was to anything.

Looking from an angle that actually shows something, it's visible that Vettel had enough space to make the corner, it's just his trajectory that caused him to hit Hamilton, his car was nowhere near rotated enough to make the corner with no contact.

Ah yeah, that is a much better picture and pretty clearly shows there is not a car width between Hamilton's left front tire and the edge of the track. This confirms what I'm saying about identical situations. This is actually worse with Hamilton though because Vettel's momentum in the corner is going to clearly take him into the car attempting to pass.

Hamilton gets a ton of free passes when breaking the rules. He can cut people off, swerve across pit entrance lines and basically do whatever he pleases without penalty. Good on him though for working the system that is stacked in his favor. Taking out Vettel was key to winning the race.

 

[Diogo Goetz Brand]

Ah yeah, that is a much better picture and pretty clearly shows there is not a car width between Hamilton's left front tire and the edge of the track. This confirms what I'm saying about identical situations. This is actually worse with Hamilton though because Vettel's momentum in the corner is going to clearly take him into the car attempting to pass.

Hamilton gets a ton of free passes when breaking the rules. He can cut people off, swerve across pit entrance lines and basically do whatever he pleases without penalty. Good on him though for working the system that is stacked in his favor. Taking out Vettel was key to winning the race.

Yeah... whatever you say.

 

[Slowdive]

I must say something about this. The booing doesn't come from the fact that Hamilton won the race, the booing and the people shouting" shame" came from the way Hamilton won this race (basically Bottas did it for him) and what Hamilton has said in the past 2 years to piss people off. He can't say whatever he wants and expect to be treated nicely. That said, i'm not a fan of the booing either, but i find it totally understandable as from the spectators point of view, that's the only way they can "reply" to him.

Hamilton said he likes the booing, it helped him win the race according to him. Bottas was seen crying in the corner after his comments.

 

[snyperal]

Hamilton left plenty of room He left exactly the same space raikkonen used, but because of turbulent air, brain fart or just plain pace vettel understeered into Lewis, luckily vet came off worse, another time Hamilton would've had a puncture or more serious damage.

 

[motoci]

Likewise Hamilton left Vettel just a fraction too little room.

the image clearly shows vettel and hamilton side by side into t4 before contact and it also shows that hamilton left just enough room on the inside. as Diogo Goetz Brand said before, it was vettel's trajectory into the corner that led to contact.
look at the pass raikkonen made on hamilton few laps later. hamilton realised there was no way he could make it on the inside so he sensibly backed off.

 

[Tero Dahlberg]

Correct. Verstappen made a clear misjudgement and left Bottas just a fraction too little room there. Likewise Hamilton left Vettel just a fraction too little room. These are identical situations that represent an error in judgement.

I'll also add that the burden of responsibility is greater on the passing driver to execute a safe pass. If there is a collision and the defending driver isn't doing anything egregious, by default the fault rests more heavily with the passer.

You selectively quoted me and just ignored everything else I wrote? Nice I could repeat myself but you might just quote "Nice" and reply "Thank you"

 

[Slowdive]

the image clearly shows vettel and hamilton side by side into t4 before contact and it also shows that hamilton left just enough room on the inside.

Clearly there was not enough room or there wouldn't have been contact. Look at that picture. Where is Vettel supposed to go? Disappear?

 

[Diogo Goetz Brand]

I want some of what you smoked, dude.

 

[Fonsecker]

There was not enough room for Vettel. Hamilton is on the outside and cut in there. Where should vettel go? There is a racing line and Hamilton crossed it and forced Vettel into the crash. of course how should vettel back off there? Hamilton had an advantage of championship points and so he risk all. As in the past races, the risk too much, cause Mercedes has nothing to lose, compared to Ferrari. And for this behavior i don´t like Hamilton, Botas and Mercedes! It is dirty...

 

[Slowdive]

I want some of what you smoked, dude.

No, you're right. Vettel purposefully ran into Hamilton. Pass the crack pipe.

 

[Diogo Goetz Brand]

No, you're right. Vettel purposefully ran into Hamilton. Pass the crack pipe.

Who said that?
Exaggerating my argument won't make you any less wrong.

 

[LeSunTzu]

There was not enough room for Vettel. Hamilton is on the outside and cut in there. Where should vettel go? There is a racing line and Hamilton crossed it and forced Vettel into the crash. of course how should vettel back off there? Hamilton had an advantage of championship points and so he risk all. As in the past races, the risk too much, cause Mercedes has nothing to lose, compared to Ferrari. And for this behavior i don´t like Hamilton, Botas and Mercedes! It is dirty...

On the contrary, it is Vettel who is mentally stuck in this "do or die" attitude that cost him so many points in his career, except when his superior RBR allowed him to cruise ahead of anyone.
Hamilton has matured as a driver and he is now quite careful, which is of course easier when your team mate is Bottas instead of Rosberg. He lifted off when Kimi outsmarted him exactly like he did to Vettel, that's the difference between them in those tense moments.

 

[Slowdive]

Who said that?
Exaggerating my argument won't make you any less wrong.

Well you seem to take exception to the idea that Vettel could not avoid Hamilton because he had no room to turn. The opposite of that would be that he ran into him on purpose.

 

[CobraCat]

No ones fault. Hard racing is what's up! I'd like to see more side by side action in F1

 

[Meensheep]

Honestly, what are we doing here? But yeah, i would ''blame'' Vettel. Too eager to keep position. Not very familiair with the exact, precise rules of f1, but Hamilton had the corner and the speed, vet should have backed off. Unfortunate though for ferrari, but i would classify it as a race incident. No penalty needed.

 

[Slowdive]

No ones fault. Hard racing is what's up! I'd like to see more side by side action in F1

Absolutely. That's entirely my point. The penalty on Max was a joke.